The Wolf and the Lamb...

[Guest]

I know how Steve Gregg deals with this passage. But I'd like some non-preterist thought on the issuse.
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If it can be demonstrated that Isaiah 11 was fulfilled in the first century...Why would I feel compelled to look for a future fulfillment of it?

By the way this is the famous passage that speaks of the wolf dwelling with the lamb and the leopard lying with the young goat and the calf with the fatling.

Let me demonstrate.

Throughout the new testament it seems that there were some issues of Gentile acceptance by the Jews into the body of believers. And acceptance of Jewish traditions by Gentile believers. Enough so that Paul spent quite a bit of time writing on the subject. One passage though that really jumped out at me is found in Romans 15. It appears that Paul is here speaking to Jewish believers in Jesus when he tells them to receive one another just as Christ also received them, to the glory of God. And that Jesus became a minister to the circumcision to confirm the promises made to the fathers and that the Gentiles might also come into the body. Something that was foreign to them, in that a Gentile had to become a Jew before he could then become a follower of Christ. This was also covered in Acts 15 which culminated in the first recorded Church council at Jerusalem.

So...What really caught my attention about Romans 15 is what Paul did in verse 12. He appealed to this passage from Isaiah 11, specifically what appears to be some kind of combination of verses 1 & 10.

Romans 15:12 And again, Isaiah says: “ There shall be a root of Jesse; And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”

If you read Isaiah 11, you can see that verses 1-9 are speaking of a period of time, some time off in the future from the perspective of Isaiah that clearly begin with the Earthly ministry of Jesus(specifically vss. 2,3 & 4a). And then there is this funny little saying in verse 10.

And in that day

In what day? Well...It would appear to be the day(time) spoken of in verses 1-9. In other words verse 10 is a parenthetical statement of verses 1-9.

“And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.”

Therefore, if Paul being interpreter of Israels sctiptures quotes this prophetic passage showing it's fulfillment in the first century in a spiritual manner...Then why would we still look for a physical fulfillment sometime off in the future?

Any thoughts would be GRRRREATLY appreciated.

One other thing. I don't mean to imply that a literal wolf would have been lying down with a literal lamb in the first century. I should point out as well the significance of the animals spoken of in the passage. The contrast here is between clean and unclean animals.

Jews = clean animals
Gentiles = unclean animals

The Jews biblically were the only people that I know of that were concerned with being ceremonially clean. This along with the vision that Peter had when mass hordes of Gentiles began to come in. "Do not call unclean what I have made clean." <--Acts 10

That coupled with Paul's message towards the end of his letter to the Romans about how they all needed to play nice together. And that what was happening was prophesied long ago.

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So what I am looking for is justification in the passage or Paul's usage of this passage that would justify only a partial fulfillment. Not just a standard, "Well this obviously didn't literally happen, therefore it must still be future answer."

Even I will say that I know nothing of a literal wolf lying with the lamb. But what I am looking for is an exegetical reason for why it must be interpreted in a natural sense when it has been fulfilled spiritually as per the apostle Paul.

Thanks again...Mike

[Guest]

11:1 A shoot will grow out of Jesse’s root stock,

a bud will sprout from his roots.

11:2 The Lord’s spirit will rest on him –

a spirit that gives extraordinary wisdom,

a spirit that provides the ability to execute plans,

a spirit that produces absolute loyalty to the Lord.

11:3 He will take delight in obeying the Lord.

He will not judge by mere appearances,

or make decisions on the basis of hearsay.

11:4 He will treat the poor fairly,

and make right decisions for the downtrodden of the earth.

He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth,

and order the wicked to be executed.

11:5 Justice will be like a belt around his waist,

integrity will be like a belt around his hips.

11:6 A wolf will reside with a lamb,

and a leopard will lie down with a young goat;

an ox and a young lion will graze together,

as a small child leads them along.

11:7 A cow and a bear will graze together,

their young will lie down together.

A lion, like an ox, will eat straw.

11:8 A baby will play

over the hole of a snake;

over the nest of a serpent

an infant will put his hand.

11:9 They will no longer injure or destroy

on my entire royal mountain.

For there will be universal submission to the Lord’s sovereignty,

just as the waters completely cover the sea.

For me psychohmike, V:9 would sort of make me think there maybe an aspect of future fulfillment. I don't know.

The child thrown in makes me think more of peace than it does clean and unclean.

Plus, the mix of animals seems to back my peace theory:

Hunter and Hunted

wolf - lamb
leopard - goat
lion - ox
bear - cow
snake - baby

It just maybe I've watch to much National Geographic

BUT I'm willing to be taught.

[Guest]

Consider what Paul said here regarding the Jews and Gentiles in Ephesians 2:14-16 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Sounds like peace making to me...How about you?

[Guest]

Come on guys...Can't I get at least one person to disagree with me??? PPPPllleeeeaaaasssee...

[Guest]

Yes, i will answer. (since you are hiding from me in the other forum)hehe

Where is a clear correlation in the new covenant of a prophetic verse from isaiah 9-11, or anywhere before that. It is clear from the context of Isaiah (you do believe in context, yes?) that the writings were speaking of a time near the original date.

So one would need a "double fulfillment" to validate your idea. Where does this idea come from? How do you justify that concept. Are there other examples of that? I am not too sure i have seen any.

And if you can find something that fits, from Paul (as an example), why isnt it just his opinion, i.e. he is making the story of jesus and his ministry "FIT" an o.t. passage for a particular agenda/or reason.

How can u justify that the idea that paul writes down did NOT originate solely within his mind??? Because if it did, then this intent from Isaiah to be prophetic seems misplaced.

jimd