NT Wright on the Rapture

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darinhouston
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NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by darinhouston » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:48 am

I'm hoping Rick may have some elaboration on NT Wright's position here, but I just saw a Nightline tv clip where NT Wright was describing his views (shared by many here) of heaven (to which Rick's great signature pays homage).

The only thing that surprised me a bit was how clearly and forcefully he responded when the host asked him if he believed in the Rapture. After describing the fairly standard critiques against the "Left Behind" view of the Rapture and the notion of an eternity in heaven, he answered the host's simple question with an unequivocal and unqualified "no." Now, I certainly don't see the rapture in the same way as the Dispensationalists, but having someone deny the reality of the Rapture who also believes in a cataclysmic destruction and rebuilding of the world (space/time, in fact) and true bodily resurrection of the saints is a bit surprising to me.

I've read/heard a lot of Wright, but this was still surprising -- so, I read an article he wrote concerning Paul's use of metaphor and "voices" from Daniel and elsewhere in 1 Thessalonians 4 (http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_F ... apture.htm, attached below). I would appreciate commentary and discussion on this article. In particular, I have trouble determining whether he would believe 1 Thessalonians 4 to be referring even to an end-time event or rather a church-age spiritual reality.

I understand Steve's position to be that there will, indeed, be a Rapture, but an at-once rapture of all (believers and non-believers, alive and dead) when the earth is remade for eternity.
Farewell to the Rapture
(N.T. Wright, Bible Review, August 2001. Reproduced by permission of the author)

Little did Paul know how his colorful metaphors for Jesus’ second coming would be misunderstood two millennia later.

The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre[1]. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture” in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been “left behind.” This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.

This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?

It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event[2]. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming” to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.

The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines[3], and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven” is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.

The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.

Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.

Paul’s misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul’s, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God’s world on the grounds that it’s all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn’t this be overturned if we recaptured Paul’s wholistic vision of God’s whole creation?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Tim F. Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, Left Behind (Cambridge, UK: Tyndale House Publishing, 1996). Eight other titles have followed, all runaway bestsellers.

[2] See my Jesus and the Victory of God (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1996); the discussions in Jesus and the Restoration of Israel: A Critical Assessment of N.T. Wright’s Jesus and the Victory of God, ed. Carey C. Newman (Downer’s Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1999); and Marcus J. Borg and N.T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions (San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999), chapters 13 and 14.

[3] Douglas Farrow, Ascension and Ecclesia: On the Significance of the Doctrine of the Ascension for Ecclesiology and Christian Cosmology (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999).


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Jason
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by Jason » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:02 am

Darin, I've heard Tom Wright speak on this subject quite a bit as well. His view is the same as Steve Gregg's view from what I've gathered. In other words, the rapture, judgement and resurrection all take place on The Last Day. I think when Wright critiques "the rapture" he's just using the term the way dispensationalists do, since that's the association most Christians make. When pressed, he'd probably tell you "the rapture" is another metaphor for the resurrection.

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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by mikew » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:55 am

I haven't read much more than a few excerpts of NT Wright. There seemed to be some concern of him approaching the Epistles from a New Pauline Perspective, which term raises a caution flag -- yet my writing on Romans may incidentally fall into the same category.

The ideas expressed in the excerpt above match with what I was finding.

Jesus' coming was being described as an event in the middle of time, not at the end of all time. It was shown as the latter days but not being the Last Day.

Then Wright's mention of the political element in Dan 7 indicates a vindication for Christians over the rulers. I would see this as being the vindication of the Christians over and against the Roman rulers of the first century.

Much of what Wright said seems to match with the simple OT references given for Matt 24:27-31. I put this in a table where many of the cross references are from my NASB bible but then I added a few more. Actually, Matt 24:27-31 appears to be where Jesus shows these many diverse OT propechies actually refer to the same time period (but before Jesus expressed the ideas in Matt 24, these prophecies may have been seen to be totally unrelated). See my effort to cross refrence Matt 24:27-31 at http://www.biblereexamined.com/Matt24Table.htm

And on the idea of rapture itself, I think Wright is right about the analogical meaning except I don't see Matt 24 as showing a physical arrival of Jesus in Jerusalem. This was more of a description of the start of the kingdom of God reigning over the nations and the inauguration of Jesus as shown in Dan 7:13-14.

Where I differ greatly is that I don't see much, if any, description of the events of the Last Day and its resurrection. All the passages I can think of in scripture, where an imagery of events is given, seem to describe events in the middle of time. Even the parenthetical phrase about the dead being made alive (in Rev 20) doesn't seem to describe such event as being the last event in history --though maybe it could be. This is one of the many areas I'm exploring.
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Conquest
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by Conquest » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:38 pm

Darin,

I'm new here, and I don't mean to butt in, but have you read N.T. Wright's, "Surprised by Hope"? Discussing the "rapture" on page 133, "When Paul speaks of "meeting" the Lord "in the air" the point is precisely not - as in the popular rapture theology - that the saved believers would then stay up in the air somewhere, away from earth. The point is that, having gone out to meet their returning Lord, they will escort him royally into his domain, that is, back to the place they have come from." Wright goes onto explain the "meeting in the air" is a metaphor. Regarding 1 Thess 4, Wright states, "The reality to which it refers is this: Jesus will be presonally present, the dead will be raised, and the living Christians will be transformed. That, as we shall now see, is pretty much what the rest of the New Testament says as well."

Conquest

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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by RickC » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:06 pm

Hello Conquest {and welcome to this forum} Darin, Jason, Mike, et al,

General observations about N.T. Wright, {not replying to anything posted yet}....
NTW, being one of the world's "top theologians" and experts on Paul and first century Judaism, has not only a "platform" from which to speak but, also, an "agenda" {in a positive sense} of getting his message out. What is his message?

What stands out is his urging us to think biblically, from inside a biblical worldview. The ways he speaks about issues takes on a double-purpose of 1) explaining the issues at hand and, 2) speaking about them in ways that may be nontraditional, unconventional or, othwerwise, not very "familiar" to us. In doing this, he simply points toward, and speaks from within a biblical worldview.

NTW can be "enigmatic" or hard to understand due to this frame of reference. E.g., when he speaks on Paul {and/or the NPP: New Perspective on Paul}, his reference point is where "Bible-believing" Christians' is supposed to be: In the first century and not the 16th! In other words, "How would the Jews of Jesus' time understood this {or that} saying?" {or verse, in our case}...as opposed to "How did the Reformers understand these?" {or other post-apostolic thinkers, for that matter}....

At any rate, when listening to/reading NTW, it's helpful to be mindful of "what he doesn't say." Since he comes from a well-rounded and established biblical worldview---and is always urging us to do the same!---he may approach topics "obliquely," seem to gloss over them, or skip them altogether. Why? Because he thinks about things differently...and much more biblically than yer average Christian, and average theologian too, imo!

Lastly for now, NTW has been misunderstood on several theological themes such as: universalism {being accused of being a universalist, and he didn't know why!, so he made it clear he wasn't!}, if he denied "imputed righteousness" altogether {which he does not!}, if he believes in hell {he does, but the specifics of his view is unclear to me}, and if believes in "the rapture" {which of course, all Christians do! but may not be "pre-trib"}....

bbl, Thanks, :)
Last edited by RickC on Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by RickC » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:59 pm

Darin,

It seems what has been posted "covers" the fact that Wright believes in "the rapture" {but not in the Left Behind version}, no?

As Jason said, NTW's views and Steve Gregg's are probably very much alike. Steve has mentioned he's familiar with Wright's thought, though he hasn't read him extensively {which I haven't either}. In Steve's "Kingdom of God" mp3 series, I noticed that Steve said some of the same things Wright has said, virtually word for word.

Re: the "enigmatic" N.T. Wright:
NTW wrote:Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.....

Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.
I'm not sure what he's really getting at here....

First, the Most High is "the Ancient of Days" in Daniel. He {as God the Father here} and the Son of Man are presented as two distinct persons in this book {leaving aside Re 1:13ff.}.
Daniel 7 {NIV}
9 "As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

23 "He gave me this explanation: 'The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.

26 " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'


These verses and the rest of Daniel 7 don't address the rapture, imo.

Does Wright see verse 22 and/or 27 as referring to the rapture, concurrent to the saints' inheriting the kingdom of God? If so, I disagree. Yet it's true that there is some sense that the kingdom of God hasn't been fully inherited {see 1 Co 6:9; 15:50}.

However, we're talking about the kingdom of the Son of Man, the interim kingdom of the Messiah here, which will ultimately be handed over to the Father, {1 Co 15:28}. The interim nature of the reign of the Son of Man {Christ} will effectively come to an end when God is "all in all."

There may be some other sense in which NTW links the rapture with the saints being seated with God and reigning with the Son of Man. I don't know what these could be.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: the saints being "seated with God in glory."
This has already occurred, and is occurring, in at least two senses, imo:
1) With saints who have been martyred: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God {Re 20:4a, NIV}.
2) For living believers {past, present, future} who reign with Christ during their/our stay on earth: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ...And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.{Eph 1:3; 2:6-7, NIV}.

IMOs, Thanks, :)

P.S. Conquest
You didn't interrupt anything...and thanks for those quotes from Surprised by Hope!...which I haven't read...Have a good day/evening folks.

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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by darinhouston » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:44 pm

Conquest wrote:Darin,

I'm new here, and I don't mean to butt in, but have you read N.T. Wright's, "Surprised by Hope"? Discussing the "rapture" on page 133, "When Paul speaks of "meeting" the Lord "in the air" the point is precisely not - as in the popular rapture theology - that the saved believers would then stay up in the air somewhere, away from earth. The point is that, having gone out to meet their returning Lord, they will escort him royally into his domain, that is, back to the place they have come from." Wright goes onto explain the "meeting in the air" is a metaphor. Regarding 1 Thess 4, Wright states, "The reality to which it refers is this: Jesus will be presonally present, the dead will be raised, and the living Christians will be transformed. That, as we shall now see, is pretty much what the rest of the New Testament says as well."

Conquest
That makes a lot of sense, and is pretty much my view (though I suspect if this world's done away with, there might be a temporary rapture into some other time/space as the world is recreated. I guess that's unknowable.

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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by Conquest » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:30 pm

darinhouston wrote: That makes a lot of sense, and is pretty much my view (though I suspect if this world's done away with, there might be a temporary rapture into some other time/space as the world is recreated. I guess that's unknowable.
Earth done away?

Conquest

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darinhouston
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by darinhouston » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:18 pm

Conquest wrote:
darinhouston wrote: That makes a lot of sense, and is pretty much my view (though I suspect if this world's done away with, there might be a temporary rapture into some other time/space as the world is recreated. I guess that's unknowable.
Earth done away?

Conquest
It's hard to know what will happen, literally, but it does sound that way to me....

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by Conquest » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:38 pm

darinhouston wrote: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Some believe we are in the new heaven and new earth now.

Conquest

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