Rev. 4:1 "come up here" = rapture?

Post by **__id_993** » Tue May 22, 2007 11:38 pm

I have been taught for about 20 years the dispensational view of revelation and I've never been able to reconcile "come up here" to equal the rapture of the church. Can someone shed some light on this because I've never had anybody convince me that "come up here" equals the end of the church on the earth. I really don't think it's in there. Thanks in advance for responding.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu May 24, 2007 12:09 am

I'm not sure which "come up here" you mean ---- Rev 4:1 or Rev 11:12.

The latter seems to be a "rapture" of the two witnesses. In his vision, John saw them "ascend up to heaven in a cloud."

Post by **__id_993** » Thu May 24, 2007 4:10 pm

Sorry about that. I'm talking about 4:1. I've been taught that this was the removal of the church from earth which is the basis for the pre-trib rapture.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu May 24, 2007 6:59 pm

1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."
2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

It seems obvious that the "first voice" which John heard, called him to "come up" in the Spirit into the open door into heaven which John saw in the vision. He would then see in the Spirit, what was going to happen.
There is nothing here about a large number of people being physically transported to heaven.

If your teachers used this passage as Biblical evidence for their pre-trib rapure belief, they must have been pretty desparate.

Post by **_rvornberg** » Fri May 25, 2007 11:59 am

There is nothing here about a large number of people being physically transported to heaven.

The dispensational view is just doing what the Full Preterist view does with the rest of prophecy.

John being called up is suppose to be a picture of the church being caught up.

1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."
2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

"After these things" is suppose to be after the "church age."

Post by **_Sean** » Fri May 25, 2007 1:40 pm

Tom wrote:I'm talking about 4:1. I've been taught that this was the removal of the church from earth which is the basis for the pre-trib rapture.

It seems that the "rapture" takes place at the resurrection of the dead according to 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15. Pre-mil, a-mil and post-mil positions understand the resurrection to occur in Revelation 20. Placing the "rapture" at Rev 4:1 is arbitrary, since there is no resurrection mentioned or of Jesus coming, as is the case in 1 Thes 4:15-16.

Post by **__id_993** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:45 pm

Thanks to all of you for your input. SorryIhaven't responded sooner. It is difficult for me to get time to type.(I type like a handicapped woodpecker.) I have never agreed with this teaching, but since it is all I have heard form my church I am currently attending and also the prominent teaching of many radio preachers I thought that someone could offer a Biblical defense for making a pre-trib rapture out of that verse. I don't really worry about when the rapture occurs. I just want to be ready to meet Him in the air. I've been told I am a believer in the PAN-TRIB Rapture. However it pans out!!!
Tom

Post by **__id_1364** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:58 am

Before we can be raptured to him, we must put off the flesh

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality

Jesus said when he was about to leave that we can not come now, but will come later.

Paul teachs that we cannot precede to the lord in rapture before the dead are raised

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The 2nd coming kicks all this in and is the first to happen--thats why Jesus said wait for it.

in a twinkling we shall be changed/ or ressurected, and will all rapture to the lords immediate presence-----(breaks into a dance).

So the rapture--gathering to him happens last--not first