Matthew 24:15 same as Luke 21:20?

[Guest]

Matthew 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand"

Luke 21:20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near"

There are some great reasons to conclude that these passages refer to the same event of Titus in 70 AD, but I still have one unanswered question.

1. Matthew says to flee when the abomination that causes desolation [Titus] is standing in the holy place. I presume this occurred after the siege.
2. Luke says to flee when the city is being surrounded. I presume this is the onset of the siege.

Did the siege last the full 3.5 years of the Jewish war? If so, are these authors prescribing that their readers should flee at different times? It seems that Matthew should have advised his readers to flee much earlier. Maybe this is "splitting hairs", anyway I'd appreciate any thoughts.

Thanks,
Peter

[Guest]

Hola:

There were 2 sieges. The first was short lived , under Gaius Cestius Gallus , in AD 67. It was called off for reasons unknown and the Roman legion was massacred. It was probably at this point that the Christians fled Jerusalem.

The second siege was started by Vespasian in late AD 68 , and when he was recalled to Rome and made Emperor , was continued by his son Titus.

Thomas

[Guest]

Matthew 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand"

Luke 21:20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near"

There are some great reasons to conclude that these passages refer to the same event of Titus in 70 AD, but I still have one unanswered question.

1. Matthew says to flee when the abomination that causes desolation [Titus] is standing in the holy place. I presume this occurred after the siege.
2. Luke says to flee when the city is being surrounded. I presume this is the onset of the siege.

Did the siege last the full 3.5 years of the Jewish war? If so, are these authors prescribing that their readers should flee at different times? It seems that Matthew should have advised his readers to flee much earlier. Maybe this is "splitting hairs", anyway I'd appreciate any thoughts.

Thanks,
Peter

Is it also possible that "the holy place" referred to in Matthew 24:15 included the "holy land" through which the "abomination that causes desolation" (pagan armies spreading death and destruction) traveled on the way to Jerusalem?

I think Jews regarded gentile idol worshipers as an abomination in general. In the Jewish mind, would not the very land itself have been considered defiled by the presence of pagan armies?

I guess I have more questions, than answers.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Guest]

Greetings, Seasons, & the regular way (same thing, imo)

First, re: when the Great War began.
It started or had its beginnings in Caesarea in 66 AD. Josephus wrote somewhere that: Some Roman soldiers sacrificed a rooster (I think it was) outside of a synagogue in Caesarea; that there were Jewish "youths" who then took guerrilla type warfare into their own hands...and against the advice of the adults. Things got worse all over Judea from then on.

The seige(s).
In one of these (Orthodox) Preterist Primer Lectures by Dan Trotter he gives an historical overview of the years preceding 70 AD, linking them to what Jesus said in Matthew 24. (Btw, Dee Dee Warren's site has "Xena" on it because she apparently looks like Xena...sort of weird to me to have Xena on a Christian site, but anyway)....

From what I recall in one of the lectures and have studied myself, the Roman army got called back to Rome due to a war or civil war breaking out there. There were wars breaking out at various places in the Roman Empire right before 70 AD..."You shall hear of wars and rumors of wars."

The Pax Romana ("the peace of Rome") came to a halt during this time. There were several different Emperors before 70 AD. Between 68-69 (I think) there were four in just that one year! The Empire was in upheaval.

As to the two sieges Thomas wrote about (Hi, Thomas, Merry Christmas from Ohio); Dan Trotter said that the Roman army, in its retreat from Jerusalem back to Rome because they had to fight there, was followed by the Zealots and hammered pretty hard; that the Zealots were then claiming the victory.

It was at this time the Christians fled to the city of Pella some forty miles away, as the Lord had told them (though he didn't say to what city or place). Eusebius and other [earlier] church historians and records recorded this event.

The Christians were safe in Pella which was was still under the governance of King Herod Agrippa II, the King who Paul who Paul almost "persuaded to become a Christian" {Acts 26:28}. I've read somewhere that the King did, in fact, become a Christian but don't recall if this comes from church tradition or where.

Dan Trotter sees the abomination of desolation as "finalized" when Roman soldiers made sacrifices to the Emperor just inside the Eastern Gate when the city was more or less conquered (the Temple was currently burning then).

I don't know if I agree with this or other stuff Trotter says. I would tend to think that when the Gentiles [Roman Army] went beyond the Court of the Gentiles...that would have done it. Their mere presence inside the Temple precincts without the intent to worship would be 'bad enough'....

Trotter's lectures are worth a listen. But he talks too fast and has a strong southern drawl that makes him pretty hard to understand, lol (I've had to 'rewind' & listen again due to this).

Btw, I like his and G.K. Beale's ideas on the New Jerusalem (the New Heavens and New Earth are 'already here' in no uncertain sense)....

Rick

[Guest]

This is some helpful stuff: The Flight to Pella

Excerpted

Pseudo-Clementines (2/3rd century)
"Subsequently also an evident proof of this great mystery is supplied in the fact, that every one who, believing in this Prophet who had been foretold by Moses, is baptized in His name, shall be kept unhurt from the destruction of war which impends over the unbelieving nation, and the place itself; but that those who do not believe shall be made exiles from their place and kingdom, that even against their will they may understand and obey the will of God." (Recognitions 1:39:3)

Eusebius (325)
"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)

"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)

"After all those who believed in Christ had generally come to live in Perea, in a city called Pella of the Decapolis of which it is written in the Gospel and which is situated in the neighborhood of the region of Batanaea and Basanitis, Ebion's preaching originated here after they had moved to this place and had lived there." (Panarion 30:2)

"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis (de Mens. et Pond., 15).

"Now this sect of Nazarenes exists in Beroea in Coele-Syria, and in Decapolis in the district of Pella, and in Kochaba of Basanitis-- called Kohoraba in Hebrew. For thence it originated after the migration from Jerusalem of all the disciples who resided at Pella, Christ having instructed them to leave Jerusalem and retire from it on account of the impending siege. It was owing to this counsel that they went away, as I have said, to reside for a while at Pella" (Haer 29:7).

"For when all who believed in Christ had settled down about that time in Peraea, the majority of the emigrants taking up their abode at Pella, a town belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the Gospel, near Batanea and the district to Basanitis, Ebion got his excuse and opportunity. At first their abode was Kochaba, a village in the district of Carnaim, Arnem, and Astaroth, in the region of Basanitis, according to the information we have received. But I have spoken, in other connections and with regard to other heresies, of the locality of Kochaba and Arabia (Haer 30:2)... "[The Ebionites] spring for the most part from Batanea ... and Paneas, as well as from Moabitis and Cochaba in Basanitis on the other side of Adraa" {Haer 30:18}.

Epiphanius (375)
"The Nazoraean sect exists in Beroea near Coele Syria, in the Decapolis near the region of Pella, and in Bashan in the place called Cocaba, which in Hebrew is called Chochabe. That is where the sect began, when all the disciples were living in Pella after they moved from Jerusalem, since Christ told them to leave Jerusalem and withdraw because it was about to be besieged. For this reason they settled in Peraea and there, as I said, they lived. This is where the Nazoraean sect began." (Panarion 29:7:7-8}

"Their sect began after the capture of Jerusalem. For when all those who believed in Christ settled at that time for the most part in Peraea, in a city called Pella belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the gospel, which is next to Batanaea and the land of Bashan, then they moved there and stayed.." (Panarion 30:2:7)

"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis " (On Weights and Measures 15)

Flavius Josephus (A.D. 75)
(Opportunity Arises to Flee) "It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world." (Wars, II, XIX, 6,7)

Merry Christmas,
Rick

[Guest]

Thanks for all of your replies. I would like to ask:

1. Which person do you think is best identified as the "abomination that causes desolation" (Matt 25:15): Gaius, Vespasian, or Titus?

2. Do we have any historical evidence that this person actually entered the "holy place [of the temple]"?

3. Do I have this right: The believers who escaped to Pella were not really heeding Jesus warning - because the abomination that causes desolation had not yet appeared. Rather, they followed the message of an angel who appeared just before the siege.

Thanks
Peter

[Guest]

Hola:

Some thoughts on the Abomination of Desolation:

The breaking off of the seige by Cestius Gallus was seen by Josuphus as being miraculous. The majority of the Jews were not in favor of the war and were in about to open the gates of Jerusalem to the Roman Army. This would of ended the war and preserved the Temple.

However , Cestius retreated and was massacred along with his legion at Beth-Horon . This gave the zealots the upper hand and encouraged the jews in the belief that God was on their side and that they could defeat the Romans. The zealot faction took over Jerusalem.

At this point Vespasian was sent against the rebels. While he was occupied in besieging Gamala , a new High Priest , Ananus , was chosen in Jerusalem. He had this to say about the zealots:

"Ananus stood in the midst of them, and casting his eyes frequently at the temple, and having a flood of tears in his eyes, he said, "Certainly it had been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations, or these sacred places, that ought not to be trodden upon at random, filled with the feet of these blood-shedding villains;" Josuphus Book 4 Jewish War

The zealots invited into Jerusalem an army of Idumeans (a traditional enemy) for support. They proceeded in making war on all those who were not supportive of the rebellion. In the end they invaded the Temple and slaughtered over 8000 , including the priests and the High Preist Ananus.

It is my opinion that this is the final Abomination, that caused the Christians to flee. This in relation to Matt. 24.

The Temple however had been desolate for some time. It was the crucification of Christ , the final sacrifice , that made all subsequent Temple sacrifices abominations. In relation to Dan. 9 , if you are looking for a person that caused the desolation , it would be Christ. Only God could declare the Temple desolate. All that followed was a result of this desolation.


The Romans were still occupied in the north. The civil war in Rome led to the proclamation of Vespasian as Emperor , The 5th in AD 68/69 (after Nero , Galba ,Otho and Vitellius). And it was up to Titus to go on and besiege Jerusalem. The rest , as they say , is history.




Thomas

[Guest]

For an early Christian futurist view, you may want to consider the link below. This was written by Irenaeus [120-202 A.D]. It is his work entitled Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter 25. this chapter is entitled:

The fraud, pride, and tyrannical kingdom of Antichrist, as described by Daniel and Paul.

Here is the link:

Antichrist as described by Daniel and Paul

Irenaeus's writings concerning the matter continue to the end of chapter 30.

[Guest]

Thomas, I'm with you. I don't see the Romans as the the primary bringers of abomination, but the Jewish rebels themselves. Especially in Josephus, this is a strong impression.

Josephus describes one John of Gischala, a rebel who commandeered the temple mount, insisting on continuing the Jewish rebellion against the Romans. He inspired the people to evil acts that desecrated the temple and he had false prophets who were predicting their victory over the Romans- a quite despicable character. He was eventually defeated when God brought the destruction promised by Jesus upon Jerusalem. I think John is a very likely candidate for "the man of sin" of 1 Thessalonians as well (not to be confused with "the antichrist", whom I see as Nero/ Vespasian)

So, back to the original question, the "abomination" (or at least the beginning of the abomination) could have happened with some time for those who were wise to flee.

[Guest]

Hola:

Rick quotes Eusebius , History of the Church 3,5 :

But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.

There is this following Paragraph:

But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, (Daniel 9:27) stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

This probably from Josephus (4,6,3 jewish war) where it is speaking of John of Gischala and his followers:

These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of men, and laughed at the laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning [the rewards of] virtue, and [punishments of] vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country; for there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and their own hand should pollute the temple of God. Now while these zealots did not [quite] disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment.

Thomas