The Narrow Path Ministries

JOSEPHUS…Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 2, Section 1…

And who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, - and particularly that oracle which is just NOW GOING TO BE FULFILLED upon this miserable city?(Jerusalem) For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen?(Abomination that causes desolation) IT IS GOD, therefore, IT IS GOD HIMSELF who is bringing on THIS FIRE, to purge that city and temple BY MEANS OF THE ROMANS, and is going to pluck up this city(Revelation 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”), which is full of your pollutions.”

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Josephus...Wars of the Jews...Dry reading...But he, like me thinks that it all happened in 70 A.D.

And he was an eye witness!!!

Pmike

Hi Pmike, what do we do with the church fathers who knew of the judgment in 70AD, but still expected Jesus at some point to return?

Thoughts/speculation?

Well it would seem that the early church fathers were a real mixed bag of nuts. From what I've seen they were all over the place back then too. Ireneaus thought that Jesus lived to be at least 50.

It took about 1500 years for the protestant reformation, so 1800 years for eschatology doesn't surprise me. And I would also suggest that the printing press had the same effect on the reformation that the internet is having with preterism.

Pmike

rvornberg wrote:Hi Pmike, what do we do with the church fathers who knew of the judgment in 70AD, but still expected Jesus at some point to return?

Thoughts/speculation?

rvornberg wrote:Hi Pmike, what do we do with the church fathers who knew of the judgment in 70AD, but still expected Jesus at some point to return?

But, it doesn't seem to me that the question is relevant to Pmike's OP. As I understand it, preterism (at least partial preterism) does not assert that Jesus' return is not yet future. Only that the events described as "The Tribulation" in fact refer to the destruction of Jerusalem. So it doesn't seem that the observations made in the OP are in conflict with the church fathers' expectation of a future return.

(Of course I'm no expert on this, so I could be wrong. I'm only just now exploring non-dispensationalist eschatology.)

Psychomike, why does it "look" to you "like Josephus was a preterist"?

Is it just because he saw the events of 70 A.D. as having been predicted in the Hebrew prophets? How does that make him a preterist?

What does the word "preterist" mean to you?

According to Wikipedia:

Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days or End Times refer to events which actually happened in the first century after Christ's birth.

Notice, first of all, that preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology. Josephus was not a Christian. Secondly, these must be biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days or End Times. How do you know that Josephus referred to End Time prophecies?

Why the revelation verse? There is no reason to think the Jewish historian knew anything about that.

Jared wrote:But, it doesn't seem to me that the question is relevant to Pmike's OP. As I understand it, preterism (at least partial preterism) does not assert that Jesus' return is not yet future. Only that the events described as "The Tribulation" in fact refer to the destruction of Jerusalem. So it doesn't seem that the observations made in the OP are in conflict with the church fathers' expectation of a future return

Hi Jared, thanks for that.

Anyway... Pmike (read his past comments) is a Full Preterist. I was only going where Pmike wants to go anyway. Sort of skipping through the obvious like the meaning of Preterism.

Paidion...Sigh...You seem to have missed the point I was trying to make.

Josephus says that the events of 70AD was fulfilling prophecies from his perspective which would have been from what we as Christians call the old testament.

I CAN'T FIND ANY PROPHECIES ABOUT A 2ND SACKING OF JERUSALEM OR 70AD IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

The only thing I know about is in the olivet discourse.

The point is that the old testament is full of prophecies about the time of the end...But says nothing about a second sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans. So either he had a very intimate knowledge of new testament writings or he was saying that old testament end times stuff was being fulfilled.

Pmike

Some more passages to consider...

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1. Revelation 16:18, "And there were noises and THUNDERINGS and LIGHTNINGS; and there was a great EARTHQUAKE, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth."

Josephus, "Wars of the Jews." Book 4 Chapter 4 paragraph 5

"for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued LIGHTNINGS, terrible THUNDERINGS, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an EARTHQUAKE. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming"

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2. Revelation 16:19 Now the great city[Rev. 11:8] was DIVIDED INTO THREE PARTS, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was REMEMBERED BEFORE GOD, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath."

Josephus "Wars of the Jews" Book 5 Chapter 1 Paragraph 1

"it so happened that the sedition at JERUSALEM was revived, and PARTED INTO THREE FACTIONS, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the EFFECT OF DIVINE JUSTICE."

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3. Revelation 16:21 "And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the WEIGHT OF A TALENT."

Josephus, "Wars of the Jews." Book 5 Chapter 6 Paragraph 3

"Now the stones that were cast were of the WEIGHT OF A TALENT, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of A WHITE COLOR, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;"

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Long story short...It seems to me that he(Josephus) was either somehow inspired to record these things in this manner...Or he had an intimate understanding of Revelation and saw what was happening as a fulfillment of it.

Not sure what to do with these things.

Pmike

Psychomike ... sigh... Josephus was a JEW. He was not known to be a student of Christianity or the Christian scriptures.

Paidion wrote:Psychomike ... sigh... Josephus was a JEW. He was not known to be a student of Christianity or the Christian scriptures.

Are you not reading my posts? I never said he was. I'm just trying to figure out why he was literally quoting it. He was seeing take place what revelation said would happen.