Another example of Inconsistent Hermeneutics

[Mellontes]

1 Thessalonians 1:1 - Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I find it funny now (I didn't always think this way) that many are quite willing to accept the following first century historical context:

• Paul, Sylvanus and Timothy giving thanks "to God always for you [the Thessalonians] all, making mention of you in our prayers" (1:2)
• Paul's, Sylvanus' and Timothy's remembering "without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ" as applying strictly to the Thessalonian believers (1:3)
• The three personally knowing about their election in Christ (1:4)
• They are told "ye [the Thessalonians] know what manner of men we [Paul, Sylvanus, Timothy] were among you for your sake" (1:5)
• These 1st century Thessalonians had "received the word in much affliction" (1:6)
• These 1st century Thessalonians were "were examples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia." (1:7)
• These 1st century Thessalonians had "sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place" (1:8)
• How these 1st century Thessalonians had "turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" (1:9)

No contemporary scholar in their right mind would believe a 21st century “us” were the ones who had given the Gospel to Macedonia and Achaia. But in 1 Thessalonians 1:10, just three verses later, we become the recipients of Paul’s letter no longer making it apply to the original first century Thessalonians. Let's see if you can verify what I mean.

Paul had just said to these 1st century Thessalonian believers in verse 9 that they had "turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" and in the very next breath Paul continues to talk to them by using the very common conjunction "and" as "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us [The Thessalonians] from the wrath to come" (1 Thessalonians 1:10). It was these Thessalonians who Paul referred to who were "to wait for his Son from heaven." Now you might not like that very much because your theology disagrees but this is what the Scripture clearly says. You may be trapped by your man-made “imminence” theory. Incidentally the “wrath to come” was, guess what, the imminent coming judgment and many of these folks would still be alive when it came. This is demonstrated further on to these 1st century Thessalonians. But in the very next verse (ignoring the chapter divisions) the futurists are once again quite willing to reverse their stance to recognize the first century historical context as to how:

• •The Thessalonians were aware that their entrance to them “was not in vain” (2:1)
  •The Thessalonians were aware that the Paul, Silvanus and Timothy “had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated” “at Philippi” and “were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention” (2:2)

And on and on for eleven more verses…

• • The Thessalonians had suffered at the hands of the Jews (2:14)
  • Paul continues in his description of those first century Jews by saying:

• - “Who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets” (2:15)
  - “Have persecuted us [Paul, Sylvanus, Timothy]” (2:15)
  - “They please not God, and are contrary to all men” (2:15)
  - “Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved” (2:16
  - “To fill up their sins always” (2:16)
  - “For the wrath is come upon them [Those Jews] to the uttermost.” (2:16)

• • Paul speaks about the short time away from the Thessalonian believers ( 2:17)

• - Paul is not talking about the time he was away from the 21st century believers!

• Paul speaks about satan’s hindrance to his visiting them again (2:18)

And then these same futurists revert back to their man-made imminence theory of the epistle being written directly to us when encountering 1 Thessalonians 2:19:

1 Thessalonians 2:19 - For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

This is the same Parousia event from the disciples’ question in Matthew 24:3! Strong’s 3952 is the Greek rendered for both passages. The pronoun “ye” definitely refers to the first century Thessalonian believers as it does throughout his entire epistle. It was sin which caused us to be separated from God in the first place. The completed act of salvation places us back into the presence of God. Does the reader notice how these Thessalonians would be brought back into the presence of God at His coming? In the next verse the futurists immediately change back to the first century historical understanding of the epistle, or do they? It would be interesting to conduct a poll among them to see how it plays out:

• •The Thessalonians are their “glory and joy.” (2:20)
  In chapter three Paul continues right along by expressing:
  •In the same context of not being able to visit them as soon as he would like, they [Paul, Sylvanus] “thought it good to be left at Athens alone” (3:1)
  •To send Timothy to “establish you [the Thessalonians], and to comfort you [the Thessalonians] concerning your faith:” (3:2)

• -We have no reason to believe Timothy is going to show up in our generation!

• • For the reason of “That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto” (3:3)

And on and on until coming to 1 Thessalonians 3:13 when they once again switch out of the historical context to their imminency mode:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 - To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Paul does not bat an eye as he continues his discourse to the Thessalonian believers, but he does stress after hoping that the Lord will “direct our way unto you” (1 Thessalonians 3:11) and “to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we [Paul, Silvanus, Timothy] do toward you [The Thessalonians]:” (1 Thessalonians 3:12), for the purpose of establishing their hearts “unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints” – the Parousia event!
And then back they go into the first century historical context again. In chapter 4 Paul continues seamlessly with his “Furthermore then” as in:

• • Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren [the first century Thessalonians], and exhort you [the same Thessalonians] by the Lord Jesus (4:1) to “abound more and more” in their walk to please God
  • Paul reiterates in remembrance by telling THEM that THEY were aware of the commandments that Paul and others had given the Thessalonian believers earlier on (4:2) such as:

• - Abstaining from fornication (4:3)
  - “How to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor;” (4:4) “Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles” (4:5)
  - “No man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter:” (4:6)
  - Being called unto holiness and not uncleanness (4:7)
  - Not to despise God by their actions (4:8)

• • Paul tells the Thessalonians that he did not need to write unto THEM regarding love ( 4:9)
  • Paul praises THEM for having such love to all the brethren in Macedonia (4:10)
  • Paul tells THEM again to “study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands” (4:11) so that THEY “may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing” (4:12)
  • And then Paul tells those same 1st century Thessalonians for THEM not to be ignorant regarding those that that had passed on in death (fell asleep). He also tells THEM to “sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.” (4:13) because “even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (4:14).

Whether they swap out of historical mode and into their “imminency mode” at verse 13, verse 14, or verse 15 is not quite known, but at any rate, it was definitely the Thessalonian believers who Paul was trying to comfort with his written words. Allow me to introduce the famous dispensational “rapture” passage with what has always been going on in Paul’s epistle to the first century Thessalonian believers. You must be getting tired of hearing that, but it does not matter – that is who the epistle was written to. Here we go:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 - For this we [Paul, Sylvanus, Timothy] say unto you [the 1st century Thessalonians] by the word of the Lord, that we [Paul, Sylvanus, Timothy & the Thessalonians] which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ [the ones the Thessalonians were concerned about] shall rise first: 17 Then we [Paul, Sylvanus, Timothy & the Thessalonians] which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them [the dead ones that the Thessalonians were concerned about] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we [Paul, Sylvanus, Timothy & the Thessalonians] ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another [The Thessalonian believers] with these words.

Can you see how these words of Paul would truly have comforted the Thessalonian believers? For Paul to have even mentioned these things tells us he had been made aware of the Thessalonians’ concerns regarding the people who had already died. Perhaps this is what initially prompted the writing of the epistle in the first place. Paul would not be “shooting off into the dark” (as some visiting preachers so often do). Paul knew of their need and addressed it.
Paul does not begin a new discourse but continues without losing step. For the next few verses the first century context may be adhered to but in doing so it creates a few interpretational difficulties for the futurists.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 – But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Just as Paul had no need to write to these 1st century Thessalonians about their attitude of love (1 Thessalonians 4:9), he also had no need to write to them concerning the times and seasons. What did he mean by this statement? This is further explained in the next few verses.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 – For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

These first century Thessalonians were already “perfectly” aware of this thief-like characteristic of the day of the Lord. Paul is talking about the “times and seasons” of the soon-coming “day of the Lord.” The day of the Lord does not refer to the departure point of the church at a dispensational rapture! The context is judgment as the next verse clearly indicates:

1 Thessalonians 5:3 – For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The “they” and “them” apply to the ones Paul had been talking about in earlier chapters. These were the unbelieving persecuting Jews and would include the “scoffers” of 2 Peter and the “mockers” of Jude 18. Notice the continuation of Paul’s comments between the day of the Lord’s unexpected arrival and the fact of “sudden destruction.” These went hand in hand. Notice also that once the day came there would be no escape from judgment even though many Bible teachers believe in a second opportunity to be saved during this judgment. As in the days of Noah there was no second chance and none would be given during this time either. God had shut the door! It is imperative that the reader understand the biblical concept of once judgment begins the opportunity to be delivered (saved) from that judgment ends.

Matthew 24:37-39 – But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Adam Clarke gives us some insight to the characteristics of this judgment:

For when they shall say, Peace and safety - This points out, very particularly, the state of the Jewish people when the Romans came against them; and so fully persuaded were they that God would not deliver the city and temple to their enemies, that they refused every overture that was made to them.
Sudden destruction - In the storming of their city and the burning of their temple, and the massacre of several hundreds of thousands of themselves; the rest being sold for slaves, and the whole of them dispersed over the face of the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 – But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Now the real clincher. Paul tells these first century Thessalonians that they were not in darkness in which “that day” should overtake them as a thief. No reference to death is indicated especially since he has already told them that they were to be alive and remaining unto the “coming of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 if they were not killed during this time of Jewish persecution.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 – Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

The reason Paul gives as to them not being overtaken is because they, including Paul, Silvanus and Timothy, were presently children of the light, a direct contrast to those in darkness who would be overtaken.

1 Thessalonians 5:6 – Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Because of the times and indicated by the word “therefore,” Paul commands them and himself (as a group) not to sleep, “as do others,” but to “watch and be sober” (serious). The idea of them not sleeping is not a reference to physical death but rather of an alert consciousness compared to those who would be sleeping, those unaware (Strong’s 2518). It is figurative because one day’s slumber would not make much of a difference in discerning the times and seasons. Those of 1 Thessalonians 1:14 who had physically died, “them also which sleep in Jesus” represents an entirely different Greek word (Strong’s 2837). The ones alive were to watch for the events surrounding the day of the Lord. Don’t forget, the Lord Jesus had told His disciples in Luke 21:20-21 “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains.” If they were not discerning they might miss this. Surely you are aware of the many Christians who had fled to Pella and other safer areas at this time? You might be very interested to also learn of the connection that Pella has with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Go to Google and type in {“dead sea scrolls” Pella} (exactly as in the braces including the quotes) and you should see lots of links provided. Of course, mingled among them may be many liberal interpretations, but you should be able to ferret through those with ease.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 – For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Paul is just reiterating the comparison of night = spiritual darkness as he did in 5:4 and 5:5. The “as do others” from 5:6 is a direct relationship to those of this verse.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 – But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Paul admonishes themselves as a group who are not in darkness to be serious and to put on the figurative breastplate of faith and love and the figurative helmet of salvation. Hopefully the dispensationalist’s wooden literalism of Scripture would not include these as being literal. Notice also that Paul continues in the same theme contrasting light from darkness. It is because of that light that THEY were going to avoid the judgment coming of the day of the Lord (5:4).

1 Thessalonians 5:9 – For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It was because these first century Thessalonians were children of the light that they were not appointed unto wrath (the coming judgment) but to obtain salvation. Notice the future infinitive use of “to obtain” salvation. That was the whole point of the Lord’s parousia event – to finalize salvation for believers. Hebrews 9:28 supports this understanding:

Hebrews 9:28 – So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I know it may be difficult for the reader to grasp but there are many other verses that express this as a future hope as well. It is hoped that the reader agrees with redemption and salvation as referring to the same thing. If not, it would be very curious as to how the difference would be explained.

Luke 21:28 – And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Romans 8:23 – And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:14 – Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Romans 13:11 – And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Peter 1:5 – Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 – Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (You will have to read a few verses before as well)

Revelation 12:10 – And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This is the reason why the NT believers were so eagerly anticipating the Lord’s coming! Now before you jump to any conclusions, it is not being said that salvation is not granted the moment we are saved. For us, God’s plan of redemption is complete because He has already come to finalize everything – a long time ago. In the period of 30 – 70 AD things were a little different. They had been given the Holy Spirit as an earnest of their inheritance but they were severely warned not to go back into Judaism – some even believe it may have been possible for these Christians to lose their salvation if they went apostate before the Lord’s return. It seems as if both views are represented, but both cannot be true. Perhaps it was the Christians who had fallen away into Judaism who would be the ones taken in judgment yet were saved. The ones who remained faithful and true would escape to Pella and other safe places. I will not be dogmatic about those who went apostate. The forty year transition period from Calvary to His second appearing was a very interesting time.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 – Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Now Paul (still in the same theme) said whether alert or not, when the Lord came both groups would live together with Him at His Parousia – the presence of God. Paul is remaining consistent in context about discerning the times.

1 Thessalonians 5:11 – Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Paul reiterates comfort in regards to them not being of those who were appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation and living together with the Lord. It is a continued human existence in complete fellowship with God, not a whisking away from the planet.

1 Thessalonians 5:12-22 comprises a list of things that Paul would like to incorporate into the lives of the Thessalonians believers.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 – And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul, now nearing his close, expresses once again how he wishes the Thessalonians to be all that they can be before the Parousia. The “you” and the “your” of this verse refers strictly to the 1st century Thessalonians! Paul desired that all three parts (the whole man) of the Thessalonian individuals would be preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord. If they were to physically die we know that their bodies would not be preserved blameless, because as soon as the body dies (and the soul departs) it becomes corrupt through the natural state of decomposition. In fact, the very mention of the body being preserved blameless is not indicative of death and once again shows the likelihood of those who would be “alive and remain” at His coming. However, this is not how the passage is interpreted. The futurist interpretation must suppress the first century relevance (the theme all along) and substitute the present generation into the text (teleportational exegesis) so that their modern imminence theory can be presented to proclaim the day of the Lord as yet a future event.

1 Thessalonians 5:24 – Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Paul now tells them the first century Thessalonians that God is faithful and will undertake the sanctification from the previous verse. It is likely an exhortation for them not to worry; God will take care of them and would be similar to 2 Peter 3:9’s “the Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness.”

1 Thessalonians 5:25 – 28 is merely a list of closing comments.

The reader may be inclined to think that this author believes nothing in Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians has any application to our present 21st century lives. That assumption would be incorrect. True hermeneutics attempts to find out what it meant to the original hearers (the original interpretation) and then base all the spiritual applications to our lives. For example, we cannot ever experience the same persecution at the hands of the Jews as the Thessalonians did. But we can use the spiritual insight of the possibility of one day facing persecution. For us to suffer persecution at the hands of Jews in this day and age is highly unlikely – we are living in two different eras separated by almost 2,000 years.
We cannot possibly be an example to “all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia” (1 Thessalonians 1:7) because we live on different continents. Even if we flew over there it still would not be the same Macedonians and Achaians! It was only those Thessalonians who lived in that region and in that time. But we can and should apply the spiritual principle to be proper examples when under affliction no matter where we live.

We cannot take the events that were happening to and were going to happen to the Thessalonians as something that is going to be duplicated in our lifetime. The events concerned only them. This is why Paul wrote other epistles to other individuals and other churches. Different events (and some similar ones) were going on in their lives. He addressed their needs which varied from one place to another. We can learn from what Paul said and take the spiritual principles and apply them to our lives. We cannot expect the same events to transpire in our life time. Similar things may occur but the historical events of the first century belong back in the first century – because that is simply when they happened. And what was expected to happen soon to them is a long, long, long past event to us. Trying to keep their immediate future in front of us as a 21st century people is ludicrous and is representative of a totally ridiculous hermeneutic. Some may take offense, but I personally believe futurists are blind to this based upon what God said about traditions of men: “Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” It seems as if they are more concerned with letting their faith “stand in the wisdom of man” (1 Corinthians 2:5) than resting upon the sure Word of God.

These Thessalonians personally knew how Paul had suffered at Philippi because the letter was written explicitly to them (1 Thessalonians 2:2). We only know of his suffering certain things because it was written down. If this epistle was written “TO” us we should have been aware of his personal sufferings in detail, but we are not aware of them except Scripture tell us. We weren’t there. Paul did not write his letter to us, if one chooses to believe the inspirational account of 1 Thessalonians 1:1.

[Mellontes]

Audience relevance is difficult to combat isn't it? The view that wants to "insert" 21st century Christianity into the context and claim it as its own is truly an eisegetical heresy of significance.

[Allyn]

Excellent post.

And in all of the threads of discussion we have had in Eschatology - not one word from Steve Gregg that I have seen. This is not a jab at Steve. I admire him greatly in many ways. I have listened to and developed much from his teachings. But, he says he is a partial preterist. Personally I would like to see Steve chime in here and explain how these passages Mellontes gave could lead one down the partial pret path.

[Conquest]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 - For this we [Paul, Sylvanus, Timothy] say unto you [the 1st century Thessalonians] by the word of the Lord, that we [Paul, Sylvanus, Timothy & the Thessalonians] which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ [the ones the Thessalonians were concerned about] shall rise first: 17 Then we [Paul, Sylvanus, Timothy & the Thessalonians] which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them [the dead ones that the Thessalonians were concerned about] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we [Paul, Sylvanus, Timothy & the Thessalonians] ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another [The Thessalonian believers] with these words.

Can you see how these words of Paul would truly have comforted the Thessalonian believers? For Paul to have even mentioned these things tells us he had been made aware of the Thessalonians’ concerns regarding the people who had already died. Perhaps this is what initially prompted the writing of the epistle in the first place. Paul would not be “shooting off into the dark” (as some visiting preachers so often do). Paul knew of their need and addressed it.
Paul does not begin a new discourse but continues without losing step. For the next few verses the first century context may be adhered to but in doing so it creates a few interpretational difficulties for the futurists.

I’m having a hard time connecting all the logical dots you’ve made in the 4000 plus words written. I think I get your argument that 1 Thessalonians was written to the believers in Thessalonica for a specific reason. However, above you seem to jump from specific issues with the believers in Thessalonians to a general issue in the “first century” context. I don’t see how you make the jump from specific issues at it relates to those in Thessalonica to a wider scope of the 1st Century expanding to include all believers in the 1st Century. I know I brought this up before and frankly your explanation fell flat when compared to your argument. Would you mind on expanding how you developed the distinction as to what is intended just for the Thessalonians versus what you seem to indicate as the expanded scope which includes all those in the 1st Century?

Conquest

[steve]

Allyn wrote:

"...in all of the threads of discussion we have had in Eschatology - not one word from Steve Gregg that I have seen."

You might get the impression that I don't find the discussion very interesting—and you would be correct. Unless I missed it, no one has directly asked me to participate by asking me a question about this, so I have taken my leisure to be involved in topics more interesting to me, and more relevant to my concerns as a disciple of Jesus.

My fascination with eschatology peaked-out approximately 25 to 30 years ago. At that time I ditched my dispensationalism and adopted a systematic eschatology that seemed to (and still seems to) accommodate every relevant text on the subject that had bothered me as a dispensationalist. While I am entirely willing to learn more on this subject—or even to totally exchange my present view for some other—it will take better arguments than those I have seen from the full preterists to arouse my interest. When I read J. Stuart Russell's (full-preterist) book Parousia, back in 1984, my reaction was the same as my present reaction to full-preterist arguments.

I felt that his exegesis was excellent, about 50%, or more, of the time. The rest of the time, he seemed to me to be desperately trying to shoehorn inhospitable texts into a straightjacket of a naive consistency. What I mean is, he seemed unable to recognize the variety of the applcations of the Greek words parousia (noun: "presence" or "coming"), and erchomai (verb: "to come"), in the New Testament. Because he found that parousia was used for the judgment event of AD 70 in several instances, he artificially applied every passage that used the same terminology to that same event. I mean no insult, but this reminded me of Emerson's reference to that "foolish consistency [which] is the hobgoblin of little minds."

That "coming-language" (including the word parousia) is used of many judgment events, in both the Old and New Testaments, seems obvious from a simple survey of the biblical data. Even in Revelation (where I believe the destruction of Jerusalem is the main focus), there are individual judgment "comings" of Christ threatened to several different churches (Rev.2:5, 16; 3:3), all of which have since been fulfilled in events subsequent to AD 70. To take every reference to Jesus "coming" and then artificially apply it to a single event is not justified by the phenomena of usage, nor by the contexts of many passages.

Notwithstanding the arguments I have read from the full-prets, I believe that the "judgment coming" at which Christ will raise the dead from their graves, rapture the living saints, and judge the living and the dead is yet to be expected in the future—since I know of no reason whatsoever to believe that any of these events accompanied the destruction of Jerusalem. If all the pre-AD 70 martyrs came alive again from their graves at that time, it seems incredible that not a shred of testimony from the early church substantiates it.

Also, the many times that Paul expresses his hope that he might be among those still living to see the Lord's coming proves nothing about the actual time of the fulfillment of this blessed hope. After all, he did not live to see the destruction of Jerusalem any more than he lived to see the end of the world. Therefore his references to his being among those living at the second coming expresses wishful thinking on his part—a desire neither inappropriate nor surprising.

That Paul may have expected the final judgment to occur millennia earlier than has proven to be the case is not a problem. When he wrote Romans, he clearly expected to travel directly to Spain, via Rome, immediately after delivering a gift to the church in Jerusalem (Rom. 15:24-25, 28). This trip to Rome was delayed by two years, and the trip to Spain by at least four, which Paul did not anticipate. That Paul may have been mistaken about the proximity of something to which he looked forward is no evidence that he was wrong about the eventual coming of the event itself.

Answering the full-pret arguments one-by-one would be far more labor-intensive than its importance justifies in my hierarchy of priorities. When I look at the arguments put forward, it is clear that the difference between the full-pret defender and myself is one of individual, intuitive, feel for the flow of the biblical argument in the passages examined. Those linguistic and stylistic features in the passages, which seem so conclusive in the eyes of the full-preterist, appear, upon my consideration of them, inconsequential and valueless as evidence for a position. Sorry, but that is my honest assessment.

Preterists and futurists will be debating this matter until one or the other is vindicated by the events (it seems, of course, that only the futurist can possibly be vindicated by future events, but by then the debate will be entirely moot). Deciding this may matter more to others than to me. I will allow those fitting that description to devote their time to postings about it. I remain a partial preterist.

[Allyn]

Thanks for the response Steve. I knew that your interest in the subject had peaked a long time ago. Maybe mine will as well but for now I feel this drive to understand it better.

[Douglas]

Thanks Steve for your response, as we don't get to see much of you on this eschatology forum.

Anyway, just a few observations bro.

If all the pre-AD 70 martyrs came alive again from their graves at that time, it seems incredible that not a shred of testimony from the early church substantiates it.

I have to ask what was the "nature" of the coming alive that you are refering to here? Are we to assume that people would or should see physical bodies shooting out of the grave upwards to heaven? And therefore since this was not seen back in AD 70, we assume the resurrection did not happen? 1 Cor 15:21. For since by man death (and what kind of death was this that Adam experienced that is spoken of in Gen? Spiritual of Physical?..... Let me put it this way, did Adam die THE DAY he ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and if you believe he did, as I do, then what kind of death did he experience? It must be spiritual, for we know he lived physically over 800 more years beyond that), by man also the resurrection of the dead. (so now is this a physical or spiritual resurrection that we are talking about? Since the first part of this verse must be spiritual in nature, I believe the resurrection spoke of here in the second half of the verse is of the same nature, not a different type.) Verse 44. "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." I can easily see how if our resurrection is a spiritual body, we might not see "bodies shooting out of the grave". Maybe? And this reminds me of the verse that the kingdom of God does not come by your observation. Maybe the resurrection that is spoken of in 1 Cor 15 is not something that can be observed in the physical realm?

Another point

That Paul may have expected the final judgment to occur millennia earlier than has proven to be the case is not a problem. When he wrote Romans, he clearly expected to travel directly to Spain, via Rome, immediately after delivering a gift to the church in Jerusalem (Rom. 15:24-25, 28). This trip to Rome was delayed by two years, and the trip to Spain by at least four, which Paul did not anticipate. That Paul may have been mistaken about the proximity of something to which he looked forward is no evidence that he was wrong about the eventual coming of the event itself.

When Paul spoke of traveling to Spain or Rome, I would assume he is planning things like you and I would that may or may not happen, but when he makes statement like "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment...." I believe Paul is stating something beyond just a hope of something that may or may not happen. And the fact that he states WE is refering to the Corinthians of that time period. Or are we to take the "we" in more of a general sense and not in context of the Christians at that time? Or do we assume he was just wrong in regards to the time frame he was stating by saying "we"? If we say Paul was "wrong" about the timing then how can we say he was right about the event? I would prefer to say he was right about both.

I just like to ask questions I guess. I mean no disrespect of your opinion Steve, and as a matter of fact I put it in high regard. That is why I ask, and desire to understand.

Doug

[Paidion]

Let me put it this way, did Adam die THE DAY he ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and if you believe he did, as I do, then what kind of death did he experience? It must be spiritual, for we know he lived physically over 800 more years beyond that), by man also the resurrection of the dead. (so now is this a physical or spiritual resurrection that we are talking about?

This argument is valid, only if it is assumed that God told Adam that the death process would be completed in him on the day in which he ate the forbidden fruit. If that had been God's intention, then the writer would not have phrased it as he did. He did not write a simple "you shall die." Consider the Concordant translation:

Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying." Genesis 2:17 CLV

God was telling him that in the day that he eats from the tree of knowledge, "you shall be dying", that is the death process would begin in him. "To die" would be the consequence of "you shall be dying". That consequence took place centuries later.

The Septuagint translated into Greek, not with a simple "you shall die", but "in death you shall die". The idea was that on the day Adam ate from the tree, he would be "in death", that is, in a process of death. That state would result in "you shall die" ---- which he did hundreds of years later.

Adam and Eve's penalty, as well as that of their progeny, was physical death.

It is high time we stop spiritualizing Scripture unnecessarily.

An older Mennonite man made the following statement about taking the Bible literally:

If the literal sense makes sense it doesn't make any sense to use any other sense.

In my opinion, the manʼs rule makes perfect sense!

[Douglas]

Paidion,
Thanks for your input brother,

I have a question as to why all the english translations I have looked up so far (KJV, NKJV, NASB, ASV, ESV) say something like "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" instead of something like "for in the day you eat of it, you shall start to die, or the death process shall begin, or something more closely equivalent to the orig. text if that is what it is supposed to be understood as? I am no ancient language scholar, so your comments regarding the orig. Hebrew are new to me, and I just wonder why none of the above translations seem to state the death in Gen 2:17 as you have?

Being able to establish if the death spoken of in Gen 2:17 is purely a physical death vs. a spiritual death is significant for sure. I am all for learning and open to changing my understanding to be in tune with the Biblical truth.

Thanks bro.
Doug

[steve]

Hi Douglas,

Thanks for your comments. You asked:

"...what was the 'nature' of the coming alive that you are refering to here? Are we to assume that people would or should see physical bodies shooting out of the grave upwards to heaven?"

I don't think a physical resurrection necessitates that the bodies that emerge from their graves must shoot upwards toward heaven. There were people raised from the dead in both the Old and New Testaments, and they appeared on earth after their being revived. While I do expect, on the last day, that the dead who rise and the living who are translated will both go up to the clouds (only to immediately return to a burnt-over and remade earth), I do so only because of taking a somewhat literal approach to the passage in Thessalonians. If the literal resurrection and rapture actually occurred in AD 70, I guess I would expect the dead to come up out of their graves and to ascend to the clouds, though I don't know why that would be necessary, from a practical standpoint, without the end of the world taking place at the same time.

When we consider alternative interpretations, we must ask, what was Paul describing, if not a literal resurrection? I realize that the language of resurrection is used in some prophetic passages in a non-literal sense. For example, in Ezekiel 37, the imagery is used to speak of the restoration of the Jews from their Babylonian exile. In Luke 2:34, it probably refers to regeneration, as in Colossians 2:12.

Now, if we are to say that, at the time that Jerusalem fell, something earth-shattering happened to the Thessalonians, way over in Greece, and that the thing that happened to them was metaphorically referred to by Paul as their dead returning to life and their living ones being translated into the clouds, my question would be—What was that event? There may be a good and compelling answer that I have not yet considered, but it would be essential for me to hear it, and to find it convincing, before I would opt for a non-literal interpretation of Paul's words.