After years of study and really thinking about it: In the Bible I can't find the concepts of "spiritual death" and a supposed 'death' after final judgment as: "eternal conscious separation from God." I can easily find it in popular doctrines that go way back in Church History...and "what I was taught"...at church growing up, and even in a Bible college.
(Btw, I couldn't fit {eternal "conscious" separation from God} into the thread title).
Genesis 2, YLT (Young's Literal Translation, 1898)
15And Jehovah God taketh the man, and causeth him to rest in the garden of Eden, to serve it, and to keep it. 16And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; 17and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
Glenn Peoples talks about Genesis 2:17 {in context} in his audio teaching:
Athanatius, Atonement, and Annihilation.
Commenting on Athanatius' The Incarnation of the Word Glenn said:
This comes from Glenn Peoples' teachings about "hell." Glenn is a supporter of conditional immortality or annihilationism. With these side-topics of (so-called) "spiritual death" and 'post-judgment death' as (so-called) "eternal conscious separation from God," both of which we have all probably heard: These two ideas are un-biblical, imo. I can't find either one in the Bible!Reflecting on God's sentence upon Adam: "you shall surely die" or, literally, "dying you shall die"; Athanatius again talks about man never escaping the state he was in, but abiding in it. Athanatius says, "But by 'dying you shall die', what else could be meant than not merely dying, but also, abiding forever in the corruption of death?"
[Glenn Peoples continues]
I'm fairly confident that, from time to time, you've heard pastors or theologians commenting on God's sentence: "you shall surely die." In all likelihood you will have heard people talking about why Adam did not drop dead on that very day? And the answer is given that Adam entered into a state of "spiritual death" from that very day. And for this reason we're sometimes told that verses like Romans 3:23, "the wages of sin is death," refer to something far more dreadful than mere dying, but rather to "spiritual separation" and, ultimately, "eternal separation from God." That's not the outlook taken by Athanatius here; that's for sure!
In reply to this outlook, which I regard to be a perfectly false outlook, I offer the following rebuttal from Athanatius in what he said next about the consequences of the fall. He says, "For transgression of the commandment was turning them back into their natural state. So that, just as they had had their being out of nothing, so also, as might be expected, they might look for corruption into nothing in the course of time. For if, out of a former state of non-existence, they were called into being by the presence and lovingkindness of the Word; it followed naturally that, when men were bereft of the knowledge of God, and were turned back to that what was not; for what is evil is not but what is good is; they should, since they derive their being from God who is, be everlastingly be bereft even of being. In other words, that they should be disintegrated and abide in death and corruption." End quote.
That's pretty explicit stuff! Whether Athanatius himself countenanced the thought of any such thing as "spiritual death," he will have none of it here on his work on the Incarnation. End Glenn Peoples quote.
Note: Athanatius actually believed in "eternal conscious torment."
He contradicted himself in this, as Glenn pointed out, and didn't mind....
Hearing the full lecture is advised for a fuller explanation: approx. 30 minutes.
Genesis 2:17, again, with a Glenn Peoples' type rendering.
17and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil,
you shall not not eat of it,
for in the day of your eating of it -- dying you shall die.'
{or could be "-- dying you do die"}.
Glenn says in a lecture that the above sentence structure of 17c is good {very accurate} for the English translation. That the structure isn't one of an "even flow" {as seen in other translations with their commas and inaccurate translation} -- but is disruptive with the hyphen -- interjecting and emphasizing the main thrust of what God was saying. In other words, this was what God literally said to Adam. I agree with Glenn on this one -- if you see what I'm saying!
I know next to no Hebrew...I can't read it at all.
But I can do Hebrew word studies.
Two words appear in Genesis 2:17c.
Both are verbs:
1) "dying"
{you shall or do}
2) "die."
Why don't other translations translate it like this?
To me the answer seems simple. It points away from popular and un-biblical notions of "spiritual death" and 'post-judgment death' as "eternal separation from God." To translate it accurately would challenge 'favorite' doctrines! Btw, the NET translation includes "dying you will die" in a translation note. However, in their other study notes they interpret the verse traditionally. At least they gave us the "real Hebrew" to consider!
In the Bible the "death sentence" appears to me to be: winding up in a state of being no more, of non-existence. I'm not sure where these beliefs originate: (so-called) "spiritual death" and 'post-judgment death' as: (so-called) "eternal conscious separation from God." They're certainly very popular among evangelicals, were around with some Early Church Fathers, and might have origins in Jewish belief systems of an earlier time than them. The Reformers accepted these ideas seemingly without question, though Luther may have had some reservations. I think they ultimately stem from "dualism" in paganism and/or Platonic thought...but I'm getting ahead of us....
Statements we've heard like, "Adam 'died spiritually' when he sinned but 'died physically' later," are, to my knowledge, completely foreign to the Bible and its authors.
I can't find in the Bible where anyone died a "spiritual death."
After final judgment the unbelieving dead are said by many to be in a state of:
"eternal conscious separation from God":
or just "eternal separation from God."
Are these things really in the Bible?
To me, if one dies the death [sentence] of God's pronouncement; one will not continue 'living' in a "separated from God existence," nor be in a "conscious" state. One simply will be no more. Life will have been terminated forever; the wicked dead will-not-be-ever-again: IMOs.
I do realize that many, most, or perhaps all of us have been taught these concepts are true. But in all honesty, I just can't find them in the scriptures, folks. I really can't....
See also, Conditional Immortality Links
Any thoughts on this stuff?
Have a Good Day. Thanks
