Matthew 25 - Goats & Sheep

[ParadiseBrad]

Good morning from Paradise

It is my habit to read material from people I disagree with more often than not. John Gill (18th century Calvinist) presents the judgement and the separating of the sheep from the goats at the end of Matthew 25 as a judement of the professing Christians by Jesus. That throughout history the church has consisted of the saved and the professing Christians who were never really saved. Considering the explanation of the parables (the ten vigins and the talents) by Jesus at the end of the chapter this seems plausable to me. Thoughts???

Brad
Paradise, CA

[Mellontes]

Good morning from Paradise

It is my habit to read material from people I disagree with more often than not. John Gill (18th century Calvinist) presents the judgement and the separating of the sheep from the goats at the end of Matthew 25 as a judement of the professing Christians by Jesus. That throughout history the church has consisted of the saved and the professing Christians who were never really saved. Considering the explanation of the parables (the ten vigins and the talents) by Jesus at the end of the chapter this seems plausable to me. Thoughts???

Brad
Paradise, CA

Brad,

I like the idea of reading those opposed to my own view as well. Those who stay strictly within their own view learn very little IMHO...
Anyway...there are two views of the "church."

1. An assembly of people who gather together on Sunday and other days of the week
2. Those who are saved.

So, to say that an "assembly" would be composed of believers and unbelievers... I would be agreed. But to associate THE CHURCH (being in Christ) with both unbelievers and believers, I would have to disagree. Either one is saved or not saved; there is NO neutral ground. "Church" history has included so many groups, it is no wonder that such disparaging views have occurred. Ask anyone if a Catholic is part of church history, and the answer will be returned "YES." Are there true believers within Catholicism? Probably, but not well-informed or very disobedient ones...

[ParadiseBrad]

Mellontes

I shouldn't have used the word 'church'. Your comments on the 'church' are right on. Gill used the term 'professing Christians'. He is explaning this judgement as pertaining to all in history that would claim the name of Jesus. The separation would be Christ placing on His right the truly saved and the unsaved on His left. He is the only one who can judge their hearts. He knows who truly 'know Him'.

Brad

[Paidion]

So Gill presumed that the judgment and destiny of all "professing Christians" depended on the kindly deeds they did or failed to do, rather than on any sinful actions which they had, in fact, committed.

[ParadiseBrad]

Gill was a flat out Calvinist so I don't think he would ever think Jesus judged them by their deeds. He was simply pointing out the reality of unsaved people being mingled in the assembly at any point in history. That it is Jesus' job to separate them out on judgment day.

I think it seemed important to Christ to warn the disciples that all who profess Christ aren't saved. The acts of compassion described in the judgment would be evidence of someone being saved, not the requirement to be saved. It is further possible that the acts Christ is talking about are toward the body of Christ. I think it is important that Jesus deals with the Christians on His right first, and that they would be able to witness the judgment of the wicked.

False conversions propagated by sloppy evangelism have and continue to bring many to church unsaved. We have a responsibility to teach faithfully the one true Gospel.....

[RickC]

The Sheep and the Goats (NIV)

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've been considering that the judgment spoken of here might be of Jews in the dispersion and in Israel (verse 32a, Jews in all nations); that the judgment was initiated (took effect) upon the Ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ: the "sheep" being the believing remnant of Israel, the "goats" being apostate Israelites.

My theory so far is that this judgment began when Jesus took King David's Throne (as the parable suggests): but the carrying out of the sentence of the judgment will not be till the last day (verse 46). In the interim, the remnant (sheep, believing Jews) anticipate their full and final inheritance of eternal life; the apostates (goats, unbelieving Jews) may anticipate being awarded punishment. However, I haven't studied this out fully. So I won't be able to comment further now.

If my proposal has any weight (merit); this parable would apply to Jews of the present time, up till the Return of the Messiah-King. It would have implications for Romans 9-11 (the current remnant of believing Jews, and the true potentiality of unbelieving ethnic/racial Israelites coming to Christ before he returns).

[Paidion]

Rick, I am shocked to have just discovered that not only the NIV which you quoted, but also the NRSV, the ESV, and the Philips have Christ separating PEOPLE. The word "people" does not exist in the Greek text.

This is a judgment of the NATIONS, and Christ will separate the nations into classes, the sheep and the goats..

When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Matthew 25:31-33

These nations will be judged as how they treated Christ's brethren. His brethren are His disciples, the remnant, true Israelites. Will they have ministered to the needs of these suffering brethren, or will they have ignored them. The nations which will have assisted the brethren will inherit the Kingdom.

Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. Matthew 25:34

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

The mature form of the Kingdom which Christ described in His parables of the Kingdom will begin at Christ's return. The 1000 year reign of Christ will be the beginning of it. Those nations which have helped the brethren will enter that era under the rule of Christ and the overcomers, the mature "sons of God" for which the creation is groaning.

Those who will not have assisted the brethren will be destroyed.

And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur. And the rest were slain by the sword of him who sits upon the horse, the sword that issues from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. Revelation 19:19-21

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the permanent fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41

[RickC]

Hello Don,

I posted the NIV for convenience (passage under consideration).
Other online translations have so many references (that I'd have had to gone thru & delete).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is a judgment of the NATIONS, and Christ will separate the nations into classes, the sheep and the goats....These nations will be judged as how they treated Christ's brethren. His brethren are His disciples, the remnant, true Israelites. Will they have ministered to the needs of these suffering brethren, or will they have ignored them. The nations which will have assisted the brethren will inherit the Kingdom.

So you think Jesus was saying that he will judge nations such as the USA, Canada, and all other nations, right? If, for example, he came today. How would he judge China? He couldn't condemn the entire nation because Christians are in it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

....However, I haven't studied this out fully. So I won't be able to comment further now.

I don't have time right now.
The study is ongoing & comprehensive, sorry about that....

[Paidion]

So you think Jesus was saying that he will judge nations such as the USA, Canada, and all other nations, right? If, for example, he came today. How would he judge China? He couldn't condemn the entire nation because Christians are in it.

Rick, I cannnot say that I THINK this. But what I do think is that the passage itself appears to say that it is a judgment of the nations.

A bit of speculation to solve the problem you raised. Perhaps just prior to His coming, the nations will align themselves for or against Christ's disciples. Perhaps the "goat nations" will exclude Christians as citizens, and they will immigrate to the "sheep nations". Those who oppose Christ in the "sheep nations" will move to the "goat nations".

[RickC]

Thanks for your reply, Don.

I'll keep it in mind as I study the passage,