A Thought On Giants, Grasshoppers ... And Preterist Hope!

[mtymousie]

"And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it. But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight." (Numbers 13:30-33)

Joshua and Caleb were the first full preterists. While others sat around with a "grasshopper" inferiority complex and wringing their hands in fear, Joshua and Caleb BELIEVED God and went in and POSSESSED the land of milk and honey just as God had commanded.

Consider: Are we really a bunch of scared, disobedient, condemned people wandering aimlessly around in some "wilderness" waiting to die? Should we not instead be like Joshua and Caleb and step out in FAITH that God accomplished exactly what He said He would?

The kingdom of God is NOT some far off, futuristic place shrouded in vague mystery, folks. The everlasting, glorious kingdom of God is ALIVE and WELL and it has been right in the midst of us for the last 2000 years: "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21).

Praise God that His incorruptible word is FOREVER capable of producing born again citizens for His kingdom: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23). Praise God that the gates to His kingdom will NEVER be shut, "And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there." (Rev.21:25), so that new citizens who keep His commandments will FOREVER be able to enter into those gates: "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (Rev.22:14).

JMO,
Dale Watson
aka
preteristmouse

[TK]

dale wrote:

The kingdom of God is NOT some far off, futuristic place shrouded in vague mystery, folks. The everlasting, glorious kingdom of God is ALIVE and WELL and it has been right in the midst of us for the last 2000 years: "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21).

You don't have to be a full preterist to believe this. I'm not, and I do. And I don't know many non-preterist believers who are "really a bunch of scared, disobedient, condemned people wandering aimlessly around in some "wilderness" waiting to die." of course some may be, but the true believers I know are not.

TK

[RV]

Should we not instead be like Joshua and Caleb and step out in FAITH that God accomplished exactly what He said He would?

Hi mtymousie,

I'd like to know what that would look like. Secondly, what are YOU waiting for? You don't need to wait for anyone else. Please show the rest of the world what it should really look like.

To be honest, I am being sarcastic, but only because I’m skeptical of this and think you’re doing nothing more than speculating on what it should look like.

I really don't want to come across rude... but I'm not buying it. But again, I don't need to if it's real. Show me and the rest of the world... please.

[mtymousie]

Should we not instead be like Joshua and Caleb and step out in FAITH that God accomplished exactly what He said He would?

Hi mtymousie,

I'd like to know what that would look like. Secondly, what are YOU waiting for? You don't need to wait for anyone else. Please show the rest of the world what it should really look like.

To be honest, I am being sarcastic, but only because I’m skeptical of this and think you’re doing nothing more than speculating on what it should look like.

I really don't want to come across rude... but I'm not buying it. But again, I don't need to if it's real. Show me and the rest of the world... please.

Luke 17:20-21: "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

The Jews of Jesus' day were waiting for a physical kingdom. They simply could not fathom that God's kingdom was SPIRITUAL! Futurists are very similar to those Jews, IMO. Futurists today are vainly waiting on a physical kingdom that will never come. They either cannot understand or they just outright refuse to accept that God's glorious kingdom is alive and well and it will NEVER be destroyed.

Praise God for His everlasting kingdom!

preteristmouse

[steve]

Hi mtymousie,

I think you are equating "futurist" with "dispensationalist." If so, then much of what you said is true, in that context. Perhaps, in your own life, you jumped directly from dispensationalism to full preterism? I am only guessing, but it would make some sense of your present mindset. You may not be aware of the full range of biblical possibilities that are embraced by Christians between these two poles.

I would be surprised if any of our regular participants here are dispensationalists (though they are welcome here, if they are. They just have not identified themselves as such), but only a minority here have embraced full preterism. I myself am only a partial preterist, and I have taught what you are suggesting about the present kingdom for over thirty-five years.

This is not an attempt to deflate in any way your exhortation, but just to clarify a matter, which you do not appear to be aware of, about the belief systems that are neither full preterist nor dispensational.

[RV]

Luke 17:20-21: "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

The Jews of Jesus' day were waiting for a physical kingdom. They simply could not fathom that God's kingdom was SPIRITUAL! Futurists are very similar to those Jews, IMO. Futurists today are vainly waiting on a physical kingdom that will never come. They either cannot understand or they just outright refuse to accept that God's glorious kingdom is alive and well and it will NEVER be destroyed.

Praise God for His everlasting kingdom!

Thanks for that, but aren't you suggesting that we're missing something? I think you're saying (I could be wrong), that there is something observable about the kingdom that we're missing?

Consider: Are we really a bunch of scared, disobedient, condemned people wandering aimlessly around in some "wilderness" waiting to die? Should we not instead be like Joshua and Caleb and step out in FAITH that God accomplished exactly what He said He would?

Again:

I'd like to know what that would look like. Secondly, what are YOU waiting for? You don't need to wait for anyone else. Please show the rest of the world what it should really look like.

[Mellontes]

Hi mtymousie,

I think you are equating "futurist" with "dispensationalist." If so, then much of what you said is true, in that context. Perhaps, in your own life, you jumped directly from dispensationalism to full preterism? I am only guessing, but it would make some sense of your present mindset. You may not be aware of the full range of biblical possibilities that are embraced by Christians between these two poles.

I would be surprised if any of our regular participants here are dispensationalists (though they are welcome here, if they are. They just have not identified themselves as such), but only a minority here have embraced full preterism. I myself am only a partial preterist, and I have taught what you are suggesting about the present kingdom for over thirty-five years.

This is not an attempt to deflate in any way your exhortation, but just to clarify a matter, which you do not appear to be aware of, about the belief systems that are neither full preterist nor dispensational.

Yep. It is the dispensationalists who have skewed the kingdom. I was one for 22 years and just now learned that they (or at least my friend) believes that THE kingdom (emphasis mine) is a spiritual kingdom for the church and a yet future physical kingdom for the Jews. If I understand correctly, that would require that all the OT promises regarding the kingdom would have to be double fulfilled in two different natures and at two different points in time.

Steve, what book (other than the Bible ) would you recommendfor a dispensationalist to rid himself of his separation of physical Israel and the church. Once that goes, it seems to be easier to accept that other errors might be involved.

[Suzana]

Steve, what book (other than the Bible ) would you recommendfor a dispensationalist to rid himself of his separation of physical Israel and the church. Once that goes, it seems to be easier to accept that other errors might be involved.

How about Steve's taped lectures on "What are We to Make of Israel?"

Found in 'Topical Lctures'

(Just a thought. I know I'm not Steve.)

[Mellontes]

Steve, what book (other than the Bible ) would you recommendfor a dispensationalist to rid himself of his separation of physical Israel and the church. Once that goes, it seems to be easier to accept that other errors might be involved.

How about Steve's taped lectures on "What are We to Make of Israel?"

Found in 'Topical Lctures'

(Just a thought. I know I'm not Steve.)

I can tell you are not Steve - you are obviously wayyyy younger looking

I am looking for a book so that I may be able to give it to my dispensational friend. They are not so inclined to listen to 90 minute lectures. A book can be read and bookmarked at their leisure... but thanks, I downloaded them onto my desktop.

[mtymousie]

Hi mtymousie,

I think you are equating "futurist" with "dispensationalist." If so, then much of what you said is true, in that context. Perhaps, in your own life, you jumped directly from dispensationalism to full preterism? I am only guessing, but it would make some sense of your present mindset. You may not be aware of the full range of biblical possibilities that are embraced by Christians between these two poles.

I would be surprised if any of our regular participants here are dispensationalists (though they are welcome here, if they are. They just have not identified themselves as such), but only a minority here have embraced full preterism. I myself am only a partial preterist, and I have taught what you are suggesting about the present kingdom for over thirty-five years.

This is not an attempt to deflate in any way your exhortation, but just to clarify a matter, which you do not appear to be aware of, about the belief systems that are neither full preterist nor dispensational.

Hi, Steve,

Thank you for your thoughts. Actually, I was amillenial for the first four decades or so of my life. Then one fateful day back in 1998, during one of many started and failed "read-the-Bible-through-in-one-year" sessions, Matt.16:27-28 jumped out and grabbed me by the throat ... and turned my comfortable little world upside down!

So, to get some semblance of comfort back and restore my sanity, I set out to compromise what I was reading with what I had been spoonfed all my life (since I had never run across the term "preterism" before, I had no idea at the time that compromise was the very definition of partial preterism). For the next two years, I desperately tried to explain away the OVERWHELMING scriptural and historical evidence that the first century Christians fully expected to see Christ return. I finally had to let go of every vestige of futurist doctrine ... accompanied by many marks from my fingernails vainly trying to hold on.

I believe that a man's sincere view of eschatology has absolutely no effect on his birth into Christ or his salvation (if perfect understanding is necessary to be saved, then we ALL got a big problem). However, I am VERY concerned, especially the further and further we slip away from the "generation" that saw "Israel" become a secular state in 1948, that the widespread doctrine of futurism could eventually have a devastating effect on the gospel. In the next hundred years, how many millions of TV viewers influenced by the popular *evangelists* like Hagee, Van Impe, etc, will become disillusioned when Jesus does not "come again"? When these "men of God" are in time ultimately proven to be false prophets, how many precious souls will start to think that the Bible itself is just not true?

I am thankful for forums like these where a reader can come and see varied points of view and the reasoning behind each view.

JMO,
Dale
aka
preteristmouse