Apostasy - A falling away

[Douglas]

2 Thes 2:3
Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition
It is considered that the "falling away" in 2 Thes 2:3 is regarding a falling away from the faith in Jesus Christ or God, but interestingly enough, I notice in 2 Thes 2:3, it does not say exactly what the falling away is from. It only says there first comes a falling away. And one must extrapolate what the "falling away" is regarding. It may very well be that what is intended in 2 Thes 2:3 is the falling away is from the faith in Jesus Christ, as we know that this is told to us elsewhere in the NT as well.

1 Tim 4:1
But the Spirit saith expressly, that in the later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.
But notice in 2 Thes 2:3 that the falling away is not specified.

2 Thes 2:3
Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition.

Also notice how the exact same Greek word apostasy is used in Act 21:21

Act 21:21
And they are informed concerning you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the nations to forsake moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, nor to walk after the customs

The word "apostasy" it appears should be understood in regards to what is being fallen away or forsaken in the context of the immediate verses.

Now I see from 1 Tim 4:1 that a falling away from the faith in the later times is specified, and therefore we could/might extrapolate that 2 Thes 2:3 is referring to the same falling away, but that is again a guess as to what the falling away is regarding in 2 Thes 2:3. And may very well be correct, but maybe not.

Considering the context of 2 Thes 2 is in regards to the coming of our Lord and gathering together unto Him, I could possibly see another falling away that Paul could be alluding to and that being physical death.

What if the falling away that Paul means is physical death, and our spirit leaving our mortal body. When I think about that, it is a separation that occurs, or a falling away in a sense that happens at death when we leave our physical mortal bodies behind. We put off the mortal and put on the immortal. Then the man of sin could be referring to what Paul has said in other places in the NT regarding the "old man" and the "new man" And what is revealed regarding the "man of sin" is not to the living per say, but to the individual that has passed on to be with the Lord regarding our previous mortal lives (the old man), and the flesh that we struggled against in this life. A true understanding (or revelation) that can only be had after we have passed on to be with the Lord.

Logically I could understand it like this.

1. 2 Thes 2:1 regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.It appears to me that the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and our gathering together to Him are the same event.

2. 2 Co 5:8 Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away (absent) from the body and at home with the Lord.
It appears to me that when I die and leave my body I go to be at home with the Lord.

Therefore if I am gathered to be at home with the Lord upon my death, and the gathering is the same event as the "coming of the Lord", then I could conclude that the the "coming of the Lord" in the context of 2 Thes 2:1 occurs at the same time of physical death.

I admit this analysis could be wrong, but also I see a possibility that it could be correct. I am not sure, but wonder if anyone else has seen this?

[Mellontes]

2 Thes 2:3
Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition
It is considered that the "falling away" in 2 Thes 2:3 is regarding a falling away from the faith in Jesus Christ or God, but interestingly enough, I notice in 2 Thes 2:3, it does not say exactly what the falling away is from. It only says there first comes a falling away. And one must extrapolate what the "falling away" is regarding. It may very well be that what is intended in 2 Thes 2:3 is the falling away is from the faith in Jesus Christ, as we know that this is told to us elsewhere in the NT as well.

1 Tim 4:1
But the Spirit saith expressly, that in the later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.
But notice in 2 Thes 2:3 that the falling away is not specified.

2 Thes 2:3
Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition.

Also notice how the exact same Greek word apostasy is used in Act 21:21

Act 21:21
And they are informed concerning you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the nations to forsake moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, nor to walk after the customs

The word "apostasy" it appears should be understood in regards to what is being fallen away or forsaken in the context of the immediate verses.

Now I see from 1 Tim 4:1 that a falling away from the faith in the later times is specified, and therefore we could/might extrapolate that 2 Thes 2:3 is referring to the same falling away, but that is again a guess as to what the falling away is regarding in 2 Thes 2:3. And may very well be correct, but maybe not.

Considering the context of 2 Thes 2 is in regards to the coming of our Lord and gathering together unto Him, I could possibly see another falling away that Paul could be eluding to and that being physical death.

What if the falling away that Paul means is physical death, and our spirit leaving our mortal body. When I think about that, it is a separation that occurs, or a falling away in a sense that happens at death when we leave our physical mortal bodies behind. We put off the mortal and put on the immortal. Then the man of sin could be referring to what Paul has said in other places in the NT regarding the "old man" and the "new man" And what is revealed regarding the "man of sin" is not to the living per say, but to the individual that has passed on to be with the Lord regarding our previous mortal lives (the old man), and the flesh that we struggled against in this life. A true understanding (or revelation) that can only be had after we have passed on to be with the Lord.

Logically I could understand it like this.

1. 2 Thes 2:1 regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.It appears to me that the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and our gathering together to Him are the same event.

2. 2 Co 5:8 Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away (absent) from the body and at home with the Lord.
It appears to me that when I die and leave my body I go to be at home with the Lord.

Therefore if I am gathered to be at home with the Lord upon my death, and the gathering is the same event as the "coming of the Lord", then I could conclude that the the "coming of the Lord" in the context of 2 Thes 2:1 occurs at the same time of physical death.

I admit this analysis could be wrong, but also I see a possibility that it could be correct. I am not sure, but wonder if anyone else has seen this?

Thomas Ice would have us believe that the "falling away" is the rapture...

Doug, do you have any Scriptures that allude to a falling away as being physical death? It would be good to bring them forth to support your conclusion.

My thoughts are that the falling away was from the Christian faith (new covenant) back into Judaism (old covenant). The persecution was just to much to handle. Just like some so-called ex-preterists have fallen back into futurism... I believe that Hebrews 10:25-39 represents that view and is consistent with the constant fellowship to provide encouragement in those trying times, with God's wrath being poured out upon the unbelieving Jews, and the Lord's soon return to them (10:37).

Blessings!

[roblaine]

Thomas Ice would have us believe that the "falling away" is the rapture...

Where do you get this idea from?

I am by no means a futurist, but I think it’s unfair to inaccurately characterize the views of those you disagree with. After doing a little research (about 2 minutes worth) I was able to find Thomas Ice's actual view on "falling away" (which appears to me to not be disagreeable with the traditional view on the subject) at pre-trib.org. You may read his thoughts on the subject at the following link http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-Th ... ostasy.pdf . I encourage you to take a look.

Robin

[Mellontes]

Thomas Ice would have us believe that the "falling away" is the rapture...

Where do you get this idea from?

I am by no means a futurist, but I think it’s unfair to inaccurately characterize the views of those you disagree with. After doing a little research (about 2 minutes worth) I was able to find Thomas Ice's actual view on "falling away" (which appears to me to not be disagreeable with the traditional view on the subject) at pre-trib.org. You may read his thoughts on the subject at the following link http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-Th ... ostasy.pdf . I encourage you to take a look.

Robin

Thank you for your kind words...

I am by no means a futurist either and I also think it unfair to inaccurately characterize the views of those you disagree with. I am not one to be so flagrant. I am not perfect by any means, but I distinctly remembered him teaching the word "apostasia" in reference to his rapture. It took me more than 2 minutes but I finally found the article I was looking for. It would seem that Mr. Ice has two views on what this word means...

Here is the link: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-Th ... hessal.pdf

Is that all you got out of my post?

[roblaine]

It would seem that Mr. Ice has two views on what this word means...

It appears he has two understanding of what the Greek work Apostasia means. Seeing since it is only used twice, and the use of the word in Acts does not allow for his liberal interpretation that he sees in 2Thessalonians. However, in the broader use of the term fall away (Planao) he seems to agree that it signifies a departure from the faith.

Thanks for posting the article. It is rather sad to see people contort Scripture to fit their paradigm.

Is that all you got out of my post?

I may use many of the same expressions and words that you use to describe my own thoughts, though with a different view. I don't see V. 37 referring to a physical return of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather I see it as referring to the impending judgment in 70 AD.

Sorry Douglas for not sticking to the topic at hand.

[Mellontes]

I may use many of the same expressions and words that you use to describe my own thoughts, though with a different view. I don't see V. 37 referring to a physical return of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather I see it as referring to the impending judgment in 70 AD.

Nor do I believe it is a physical return...there is no precedent for the day of the Lord to demand the physical presence of deity. God always used other instruments to carry out his divine task. Just as in the destruction of Jerusalem...

Hey Doug, have you found any verses yet that give a clearer relationship to physical death? Perhaps derivations of apostasia...

[Douglas]

Doug, do you have any Scriptures that allude to a falling away as being physical death? It would be good to bring them forth to support your conclusion.

I would like to humbly suggest that what I have proposed in the topic is more of a question rather than a definitive conclusion. I could bring more Scriptures that might be considered plausible in support of the hypothesis but the focus of the question was in regards to the Greek word that is used for apostasy in 2 Thes 2.

From my study Bibles Greek lexicon, it appeared that the exact Greek word that is used for apostasy in 2 Thes 2 is only found in one other place, Act 21:21. And therefore I used that as a reference to help me understand how the the word is used. Maybe that Greek word is also used elswhere throughout the Bible and it is just my limited resources that prevent me from knowing that.

You obviously know way more than I, and I thank you for your input.

Doug

[steve7150]

Then the man of sin could be referring to what Paul has said in other places in the NT regarding the "old man" and the "new man" And what is revealed regarding the "man of sin" is not to the living per say, but to the individual that has passed on to be with the Lord regarding our previous mortal lives (the old man), and the flesh that we struggled against in this life. A true understanding (or revelation) that can only be had after we have passed on to be with the Lord.


Doug,

In 2nd Thes 2.9 it says "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles , signs and wonders and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing."

[Mellontes]

Doug, do you have any Scriptures that allude to a falling away as being physical death? It would be good to bring them forth to support your conclusion.

I would like to humbly suggest that what I have proposed in the topic is more of a question rather than a definitive conclusion. I could bring more Scriptures that might be considered plausible in support of the hypothesis but the focus of the question was in regards to the Greek word that is used for apostasy in 2 Thes 2.

From my study Bibles Greek lexicon, it appeared that the exact Greek word that is used for apostasy in 2 Thes 2 is only found in one other place, Act 21:21. And therefore I used that as a reference to help me understand how the the word is used. Maybe that Greek word is also used elswhere throughout the Bible and it is just my limited resources that prevent me from knowing that.

You obviously know way more than I, and I thank you for your input.

Doug

Ha! I know nothing. And what I do know may change because it is always subject to further illumination...that is why I am no longer a dispie, but I digress...

I found 3 references from the LXX that use the exact same word. I have bolded and underlined the word:

Joshua 22:22 - The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)

I am not sure which word from Joshua 22:22 is being referred to. Perhaps it is both? But for sure, it is one.

2 Chronicles 29:19 - Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD.

Jeremiah 2:19 - Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

It seems that even the OT supports a falling away from that which is good. i.e. the Lord, God

[Douglas]

Steve,
Excellent observation regarding 2 Thes 2:9

Notice how this verse is translated in the YLT

[him,] whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders

also in the NASB I have

that is, the one whose coming (presence) is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders.

The word translated "coming" can also be translated "presence", which I guess is up to the translators to try to determine by more of an interpretation basis than a translation basis. As you can see that changes the possible understanding of this passage significantly. If the original meaning was to be "presence" than I believe it would be compatible with the possibility of the hypothesis that is set forth in the original topic.

I am finding it very helpful to reference multiple translations of specific, difficult to understand verses.

Mel, brother.

The extra references from the Old Testament are awesome, thanks! My study Bible does reference almost all of them with the original Hebrew words, and I was able to look them up as well. Thanks again for providing this, as it does help me see the importance of how I need to look at the words in context of the passages that they are in and not try to assign a rigid meaning outside of the context. Interesting that so many different words in the Hebrew that were translated into the same Greek word apostasia.

Both your inputs have been very helpful, thanks brothers
Doug