[OT] Is there a future rapture

[FreeIndeed]

The teaching of the Rapture is probably one of the most destructive false doctrines. For one,thanks to Mason Tim LaHaye his Illusionist buddy Hal Lindsey, the predominant understanding of is that Christians really don't have concern themselves with end times because "we're out of here" This mentality has been fuel for the fire of complacency rampant in the Church today. Secondly and now much more siginificant is the way the Rapture ties directly to Jewish Dispensationalism. The teaching is that after the Rapture everything reverts back to the Old Testament. This is all part of the Zionist brainwashing. The 3rd aspect and probably the biggest problem with the followers of the Rapture Cult is the fact they are oblivious to what is coming.

There's no Rapture between 24 8 & 9
Matthew 24
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And there's no Rapture in Zechariah 13
8 nd it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 ad I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Zechariah is describing the Great Tribulation, the Purification of the Church. 2 parts will be cut off. (the Serpents and The Scorpions) and 1 part The Multitude) will be brought through the fire . Jesus is coming back for a Spotless Bride. The Doctrine of the Rapture is absurd.
Chris
http://www.thirdgreatawakening.org

[steve7150]

This is all part of the Zionist brainwashing. The 3rd aspect and probably the biggest problem with the followers of the Rapture Cult is the fact they are oblivious to what is coming.




Good grief, another one? Personally i think "preterism" possibly has no more validity then dispensationalism. Numerous times in the NT we see both Jesus and Paul speak of "this present age" and "the age to come" as two distinctly different ages such as when Jesus said in this age we marry but in the age to come there will be no marriage or forgiveness for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Yet preterists ignore many distinctions like this regarding only two ages and claim the jewish age ended in 70AD and another age starts after 70AD.
Jesus and Paul labled the age to come as the eternal state with immortality and this age as temporal. Well even after 70AD things are still temporal, we certainly have not arrived at the age to come. That line of demarkation is identified by by the return of Christ.

[Mellontes]

This is all part of the Zionist brainwashing. The 3rd aspect and probably the biggest problem with the followers of the Rapture Cult is the fact they are oblivious to what is coming.

Good grief, another one? Personally i think "preterism" possibly has no more validity then dispensationalism. Numerous times in the NT we see both Jesus and Paul speak of "this present age" and "the age to come" as two distinctly different ages such as when Jesus said in this age we marry but in the age to come there will be no marriage or forgiveness for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Yet preterists ignore many distinctions like this regarding only two ages and claim the jewish age ended in 70AD and another age starts after 70AD.
Jesus and Paul labled the age to come as the eternal state with immortality and this age as temporal. Well even after 70AD things are still temporal, we certainly have not arrived at the age to come. That line of demarkation is identified by by the return of Christ.

It is one thing to claim something; it is another to support that claim with Scripture. You are missing the latter...

Please show me the Scriptures which made you arrive at your following hypothesis:

"Jesus and Paul labled the age to come as the eternal state with immortality and this age as temporal."

Blessings!

[steve7150]

It is one thing to claim something; it is another to support that claim with Scripture. You are missing the latter...



Matthew 12.32 "no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit either in this age or the age to come."

Luke 18.29-30 "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and in the age to come, eternal life."

Luke 20.34-36 " The people of this age marry and are given in marriage , but those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage."

This present age Christ describes as temporal but the age to come is eternal and has immortality for us. The line of demarcation between the two ages is Christ's return.


Paul also identified with these two distinct ages,

Eph 2.1-2 "the ways of this age are evil"
Rom 12.2 "We are not to be conformed to the pattern of this age."
Gal 1.4 "this present age is evil."
2 Cor 4.4 "Satan is the God of this age"
1 Cor 1.20 "the wisdom of this age is godless speculation"


The characteristics of this present evil age extend past 70AD right through to this present moment.

[steve7150]

BTW the scenerio of there being only two distinct ages "this evil age" and "the age to come" leaves no room for a thousand yr milleneum and is consistent with only one view of Revelation , the historicist view, IMHO.

[Mellontes]

It is one thing to claim something; it is another to support that claim with Scripture. You are missing the latter...

Matthew 12.32 "no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit either in this age or the age to come."

Luke 18.29-30 "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and in the age to come, eternal life."

Luke 20.34-36 " The people of this age marry and are given in marriage , but those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage."

This present age Christ describes as temporal but the age to come is eternal and has immortality for us. The line of demarcation between the two ages is Christ's return.

Paul also identified with these two distinct ages,

Eph 2.1-2 "the ways of this age are evil"
Rom 12.2 "We are not to be conformed to the pattern of this age."
Gal 1.4 "this present age is evil."
2 Cor 4.4 "Satan is the God of this age"
1 Cor 1.20 "the wisdom of this age is godless speculation"

The characteristics of this present evil age extend past 70AD right through to this present moment.

I guess it depends how you look at it...

To me, the ages are divided between old covenant age and new covenant age.

Daniel referred to this time as the "time of the end" NOT the end of time as is so commonly taught:

Daniel 8:17 - So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 11:35 - And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 11:40 - And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Daniel 12:4-9 - But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel's prophecy expressed the "time of the end" when the power of the holy people was scattered. I believe this to be 70 AD at the destruction of Jerusalem when thousands upon thousands were either killed or taken into slavery.

There are many verses that talk about the end of the "age" (translated "world" in many Bibles). I think this is where the idea is derived that the "end" must refer to a history ending event. It is not. The end of the "age" referred to the old covenant economy. This old covenant economy DID pass away in 70 AD as predicted. These are what all the time statements refer to. To me, there are a few reasons why people don't accept the parousia coming in 70 AD to end the age:

1. The last days are thought to be the last days of history/planet
2. The end of the "age" is thought to be referring to history/planet
3. Involves an incorrect nature of the parousia, resurrection and judgment

What I don't understand is that many non-full preterists understand that the new heavens and earth/new Jerusalem correctly apply to the church. They also understand how the old heaven and earth referred to the old covenant economy which did pass to give way to the church. Yet, they are unable to associate the new heaven and earth with the new age - the "age to come." To me, this is inconsistent. Especially when the "mello" (Strong's 3195) aspect is added:

One of my favorite supporting verses for the differences between the two ages is Matthew 12:32. You used this verse for your support. Let's have a closer look. I am going to quote from the KJV with Strong's numbers...

Mat 12:32 AndG2532 whosoeverG3739 G302 speakethG2036 a wordG3056 againstG2596 theG3588 SonG5207 of man,G444 it shall be forgivenG863 him:G846 butG1161 whosoeverG3739 G302 speakethG2036 againstG2596 theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost,G4151 it shall notG3756 be forgivenG863 him,G846 neitherG3777 inG1722 thisG5129 world,G165 neitherG3777 inG1722 theG3588 world to come.G3195

The "world" (first bold and underline) is Strong's 165 (age). I think we both agree here. The next "world" (red bold and underline) is supplied by the translators knowing that another "age" is implied by the phrase "to come." I think you agree here as well. It is the hazy future use of Strong's 3195 that I draw your attention to. It should more accurately be translated "about to come," for this is why "μελλοντι" is used. The word "come" is added and not in the Greek at all...The "age to come" gives the impression of an unknown future. However, the "age about to" gives the impression of something imminent...

But let's look even closer. You said the "age to come" represents eternality and immortality. I assume you mean this as our abode in eternity after physical death. I also assume that this is what you are saying because of your suggestion that post 70 AD is STILL temporal. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong. No doubt you believe, as many do, that eternal and immortal refer to the heavenly state after physical death. I think we have been led astray by our present definition of immortal. For some reason, immortality has come to mean never having to die (as in human existence, natural death). To me, immortality is associated with the Gospel:

2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Do you see how death HAS BEEN ABOLISHED (Past tense)? Do you see the contrast between LIFE and IMMORTALITY with that of DEATH? There are many verses that associate LIFE with the Gospel. This LIFE is to come to already living, breathing, human beings who already have "physical" life. To me, we are given this LIFE and IMMORTALITY when we receive the Gospel of Truth. As you can also see, Jesus Christ has abolished DEATH through the Gospel, but all Christians do physically die. So, it is clear that "physical" death is NOT what was abolished...more food for thought.

Now, let me ask a very pointed question regarding Matthew 12:32...

Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [age], neither in the world [age] [about] to come.

If the "age about to come" truly does represent eternity after physical death, then how can it be possible for an individual to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in THAT realm?

Both "ages" ARE temporal in nature! You have the old covenant age of law and the new covenant Messianic age of grace. Do not forget that the old covenant economy was on the way out ever since the inauguration of the new covenant in Christ at the cross. The new covenant wouldn't be fully manifested until the old covenant economy had been done away with. When this happened, Christianity would no longer be considered a sect of Judaism (Acts 28:22):

Hebrews 8:13 - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The phrase "ready to vanish away" is a time statement. The time is the mid-sixties AD. Just a few short years more until the parousia. Perhaps looking at Hebrews 8:28 will make this even more apparent:

(KJV) Hebrews 10:37 - For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

I suppose a "little while" could be stretched out a bit. Let's try two more translations:

(DARBY) Heb 10:37 - For yet a very little while he that comes will come, and will not delay.

(Murdock) Heb 10:37 - Because, yet a little,--and it is a very little time,--when he that cometh, will come, and will not delay.

I guess we could say that we are narrowing the time element even more, but still this is not the true sense of the verse. Young's Literal Translation is the only translation that I have found that comes close to the Greek:

(YLT) Heb 10:37 - for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;

It is the only translation that I am aware of that correctly recognizes and translate the TWO Greek adverbs "oson" (οσον) to the English word "very."

Heb 10:37 ετι γαρ μικρον οσον οσον ο ερχομενος ηξει και ου χρονιει


Also, if one understand the "elements," the stoichea (στοιχεια - Strong's 4747), in the same way that the apostle Paul used the term in the following passages, then we can easily see the reference to teachings and not atomic structure:

Galatians 4:3 - Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Galatians 4:9 - But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:20 - Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Hebrews 5:12 - For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

One can even see how the old covenant teachings are specifically referred to in Galatians 4:3, 4:9 and Hebrews 5:12.

So, having this understanding of the "elements, why then are we so presupposed to say that these "elements" must now mean atomic structure when used in 2 Peter 3 referring to the new heaven and earth (which many accept as being the church)? If it is expressing the "end" of the old covenant economy (which I believe it is) then Paul's understanding of "elements" fits PERFECTLY. There is no need to assume that both Peter and his first century audience were knowledgeable of nuclear fission and those kinds of things. To even suggest that "elements" were considered as components of the universe is, in my opinion, ludicrous. The electron microscope wouldn't be invented for another 1,860 years from the time Peter's second epistle was written. Even the Russian chemist Dmitri Mendeleev's 1869 Periodic Table of Elements wouldn't be common knowledge for another 1,800 years. However, "elements" was known in 300 AD. Unfortunately for many, even this understanding, originating from Euclid's book "Elements," defined “elements” to be a collection of theorems or principles that governed geometry.

Furthermore, we can have a better understanding of 1 Peter 4:7 if we understand the elements as teachings and the "end" as referring to the old covenant economy:

1 Peter 4:7 - But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Another verse in Peter epistles representing the "about to" (mello) aspect...

1 Peter 5:1 - The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall [about to] be revealed:

One must simply understand that everything Christ said about the "end of the age" came true to the generation he said it would (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32). All of the apostles spoke of this time as a soon, at hand, coming quickly, nigh, at the door, shortly, etc. coming event upon their generation.
The "time of the end" has nothing to do with the end of history or the planet.

Blessings (sorry for the long-windedness)

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but IS PASSED from death unto life.

John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

1 John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 5:11-12 - And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

[kaufmannphillips]

Now, let me ask a very pointed question regarding Matthew 12:32...

Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [age], neither in the world [age] [about] to come.

If the "age about to come" truly does represent eternity after physical death, then how can it be possible for an individual to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in THAT realm?

The segment about the two ages might be talking about when the person will not be freed from their sin. Some persons are not fully freed from sins in this world (e. g., they still sin through ignorance, or they still have to bear consequences for their sin); yet, they may be fully freed in the world to come. In this passage, though, the adversary to the holy spirit would not be freed from this sin in this world; neither would they be freed from it in the world to come.

[Douglas]

Luke 20.34-36 " The people of this age marry and are given in marriage , but those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage."

I did not see any explanation for Steve's above example of the two "ages" considered in the above verse that would refute what he said.

I am a married man, so I would assume from Luke 20:34-36 that I am part of "this" age still that are given in marriage. - simple logic seems to make that evident, at least to me.

This specific verse does not seem to lend itself towards two different covenants, but instead seems to draw the line between the living and the dead, specifically, those resurrected from physical death that are worthy vs. those who are still alive and are able to get married.

Doug

[Mellontes]

Luke 20.34-36 " The people of this age marry and are given in marriage , but those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage."

I did not see any explanation for Steve's above example of the two "ages" considered in the above verse that would refute what he said.

Hopefully you saw "something" in the many paragraphs expressed upon the other verses...Can you point out where I might have erred in all those paragraphs? Or did you just glance through them to see if I left any of the verses out...Sorry, but you folks seem to want full book-length explanations from me, while I am to be satisfied by one or two sentences of very limited Scriptural rhetoric...Sorry, but it takes way too much time on my part. May I suggest some research on your own? I have explained these things many times before. I'm sorry, but for those who are either unwilling or unable to understand that "at hand," "quickly coming," "Will not delay," "very, very little while," "shortly must come to pass," "near," "nigh," etc. meant exactly what the phrase means and NOT]2,000 thousands into the future [/b, then there is very little hope of explaining further (and more difficult) concepts. The simple things are the hundreds of time statements in reference to the parousia coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. If these will not be accepted within the time frame given (1st century generation), then how can one expect to "let go" the false nature of their existing "time of the end" scenario. Sorry to be blunt, but this is exactly what stops further analysis. Futurists have their "NATURE" of end time events and no amount of Scripture is ever going to change that...Majority opinion does not necessarily represent truth! If that truly were the case, then Christianity, as a minority religion, would be false on that basis alone!!!

I am a married man, so I would assume from Luke 20:34-36 that I am part of "this" age still that are given in marriage. - simple logic seems to make that evident, at least to me.

This specific verse does not seem to lend itself towards two different covenants, but instead seems to draw the line between the living and the dead, specifically, those resurrected from physical death that are worthy vs. those who are still alive and are able to get married.

Doug

See if this link helps any: http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?op ... &Itemid=61

Tell me, are there presently (right now) people who are living that are DEAD (in their sins)?

Why must it always be that LIFE must be considered "PHYSICAL" life and DEATH must be considered "PHYSICAL" death?

How is that possible here?

Matthew 8:22 - But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Luke 9:60 - Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but IS PASSED from death unto life.

John 10:10 - The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

John 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 John 3:14 - We know that we HAVE PASSED from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.