steve7150 wrote:It is one thing to claim something; it is another to support that claim with Scripture. You are missing the latter...
Matthew 12.32 "no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit either in this age or the age to come."
Luke 18.29-30 "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and in the age to come, eternal life."
Luke 20.34-36 " The people of this age marry and are given in marriage , but those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage."
This present age Christ describes as temporal but the age to come is eternal and has immortality for us. The line of demarcation between the two ages is Christ's return.
Paul also identified with these two distinct ages,
Eph 2.1-2 "the ways of this age are evil"
Rom 12.2 "We are not to be conformed to the pattern of this age."
Gal 1.4 "this present age is evil."
2 Cor 4.4 "Satan is the God of this age"
1 Cor 1.20 "the wisdom of this age is godless speculation"
The characteristics of this present evil age extend past 70AD right through to this present moment.
I guess it depends how you look at it...
To me, the ages are divided between old covenant age and new covenant age.
Daniel referred to this time as the "
time of the end"
NOT the end of time as is so commonly taught:
Daniel 8:17 - So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Daniel 11:35 - And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Daniel 11:40 - And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Daniel 12:4-9 - But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Daniel's prophecy expressed the "time of the end" when the power of the holy people was scattered. I believe this to be 70 AD at the destruction of Jerusalem when thousands upon thousands were either killed or taken into slavery.
There are many verses that talk about the end of the "age" (translated "world" in many Bibles). I think this is where the idea is derived that the "end" must refer to a history ending event. It is not. The end of the "age" referred to the old covenant economy. This old covenant economy
DID pass away in 70 AD as predicted. These are what all the time statements refer to. To me, there are a few reasons why people don't accept the parousia coming in 70 AD to end the age:
1. The last days are thought to be the last days of history/planet
2. The end of the "age" is thought to be referring to history/planet
3. Involves an incorrect nature of the parousia, resurrection and judgment
What I don't understand is that many non-full preterists understand that the new heavens and earth/new Jerusalem correctly apply to the church. They also understand how the old heaven and earth referred to the old covenant economy which did pass to give way to the church. Yet, they are unable to associate the new heaven and earth with the new age - the "age to come." To me, this is inconsistent. Especially when the "mello" (Strong's 3195) aspect is added:
One of my favorite supporting verses for the differences between the two ages is Matthew 12:32. You used this verse for your support. Let's have a closer look. I am going to quote from the KJV
with Strong's numbers...
Mat 12:32 AndG2532 whosoeverG3739 G302 speakethG2036 a wordG3056 againstG2596 theG3588 SonG5207 of man,G444 it shall be forgivenG863 him:G846 butG1161 whosoeverG3739 G302 speakethG2036 againstG2596 theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost,G4151 it shall notG3756 be forgivenG863 him,G846 neitherG3777 inG1722 thisG5129 world,G165 neitherG3777 inG1722 theG3588 world to come.G3195
The "world" (first bold and underline) is Strong's 165 (age). I think we both agree here. The next "world" (red bold and underline) is supplied by the translators knowing that another "age" is implied by the phrase "to come." I think you agree here as well. It is the hazy future use of Strong's 3195 that I draw your attention to. It should more accurately be translated "
about to come," for this is why "μελλοντι" is used. The word "
come" is added and not in the Greek at all...The "age to come" gives the impression of an unknown future. However, the "
age about to" gives the impression of something imminent...
But let's look even closer. You said the "age to come" represents eternality and immortality. I assume you mean this as our abode in eternity
after physical death. I also assume that this is what you are saying because of your suggestion that post 70 AD is
STILL temporal. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong. No doubt you believe, as many do, that eternal and immortal refer to the heavenly state after physical death. I think we have been led astray by our present definition of immortal. For some reason, immortality has come to mean never having to die (as in human existence, natural death). To me, immortality is associated with the Gospel:
2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Do you see how death HAS BEEN ABOLISHED (Past tense)? Do you see the contrast between LIFE and IMMORTALITY with that of DEATH? There are many verses that associate LIFE with the Gospel. This LIFE is to come to
already living, breathing, human beings who already have "physical" life. To me, we are given this LIFE and IMMORTALITY when we receive the Gospel of Truth. As you can also see, Jesus Christ has abolished DEATH through the Gospel, but all Christians do physically die. So, it is clear that "physical" death is
NOT what was abolished...more food for thought.
Now, let me ask a very pointed question regarding Matthew 12:32...
Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [age], neither in the world [age] [about] to come.
If the "age about to come" truly does represent eternity after physical death, then how can it be possible for an individual to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in THAT realm?
Both "ages"
ARE temporal in nature! You have the old covenant age of law and the new covenant Messianic age of grace. Do not forget that the old covenant economy was on the way out ever since the inauguration of the new covenant in Christ at the cross. The new covenant wouldn't be fully manifested until the old covenant economy had been done away with. When this happened, Christianity would no longer be considered a sect of Judaism (Acts 28:22):
Hebrews 8:13 - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is
ready to vanish away.
The phrase "ready to vanish away" is a time statement. The time is the mid-sixties AD. Just a few short years more until the parousia. Perhaps looking at Hebrews 8:28 will make this even more apparent:
(KJV) Hebrews 10:37 - For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
I suppose a "little while" could be stretched out a bit. Let's try two more translations:
(DARBY) Heb 10:37 - For yet a very little while he that comes will come, and will not delay.
(Murdock) Heb 10:37 - Because, yet a little,--and it is a very little time,--when he that cometh, will come, and will not delay.
I guess we could say that we are narrowing the time element even more, but still this is not the true sense of the verse. Young's Literal Translation is the only translation that I have found that comes close to the Greek:
(YLT) Heb 10:37 - for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;
It is the only translation that I am aware of that correctly recognizes and translate the
TWO Greek adverbs "oson" (οσον) to the English word "very."
Heb 10:37 ετι γαρ μικρον οσον οσον ο ερχομενος ηξει και ου χρονιει
Also, if one understand the "elements," the stoichea (στοιχεια - Strong's 4747), in the same way that the apostle Paul used the term in the following passages, then we can easily see the reference to
teachings and not atomic structure:
Galatians 4:3 - Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Galatians 4:9 - But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:20 - Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Hebrews 5:12 - For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
One can even see how the old covenant teachings are specifically referred to in Galatians 4:3, 4:9 and Hebrews 5:12.
So, having this understanding of the "elements, why then are we so presupposed to say that these "elements" must now mean atomic structure when used in 2 Peter 3 referring to the new heaven and earth (which many accept as being the church)? If it is expressing the "end" of the old covenant economy (which I believe it is) then Paul's understanding of "elements" fits PERFECTLY. There is no need to assume that both Peter and his first century audience were knowledgeable of nuclear fission and those kinds of things. To even suggest that "elements" were considered as components of the universe is, in my opinion, ludicrous. The electron microscope wouldn't be invented for another 1,860 years from the time Peter's second epistle was written. Even the Russian chemist Dmitri Mendeleev's 1869 Periodic Table of Elements wouldn't be common knowledge for another 1,800 years.
However, "elements" was known in 300 AD. Unfortunately for many, even this understanding, originating from Euclid's book "Elements," defined “elements” to be a collection of
theorems or principles that governed geometry.
Furthermore, we can have a better understanding of 1 Peter 4:7 if we understand the elements as teachings and the "end" as referring to the old covenant economy:
1 Peter 4:7 - But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Another verse in Peter epistles representing the "about to" (mello) aspect...
1 Peter 5:1 - The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall [about to] be revealed:
One must simply understand that everything Christ said about the "end of the age" came true to the generation he said it would (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32). All of the apostles spoke of this time as a soon, at hand, coming quickly, nigh, at the door, shortly, etc. coming event upon their generation.
The "time of the end" has nothing to do with the end of history or the planet.
Blessings (sorry for the long-windedness)
John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but IS PASSED from death unto life.
John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
1 John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 5:11-12 - And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.