The Narrow Path Ministries

Paul affirmed that Jesus was raised as a prototype of our resurrection. We read of Jesus eating with his disciples after His resurrection. Yet preterists deny a physical resurrection!

Quote from Tim Warner:

1 John 4:1-3 NKJV
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

The Greek word rendered "has come" is a perfect participle. The Greek perfect tense indicates a past completed action with results that continue to the present. To get the full sense of the perfect tense, this verse would be translated as follows: "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come, and remains in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come and remains in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world." The biblical test for the spirit of antichrist is its denial of the incarnation of Jesus Christ in human flesh, and / or the continuous, permanent, state of His existence in human flesh. That "the Word became flesh," and that He continues permanently in that state, is the essential "doctrine of Christ." Anything else is not "Christian," but a slick counterfeit. Preterism denies "the doctrine of Christ." It is not genuine "Christianity."

What say you, preterist? I believe Jesus gave up what He was prior to the incarnation and forever remains "The Son".

Why do you say we deny a physical resurrection? Have you read something that I haven't seen?

If Jesus truly was the first fruits of THE resurrection, then how would you explain the resurrection of Lazarus, or the ones in the OT? Is it possible that THE resurrection refers to a resurrection not from PHYSICAL death but from a separation from God (the biblical and Hebrew way of understanding death). This is a concept further supported by what Jesus said to Martha in John 11:26:

John 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus said we would NEVER die If they believed in Him. It is after belief that a person would not die. And since every person who we refer to as being Christian has PHYSICALLY died, there can only be the following things that apply to what he said:

a) No "Christian" has ever really been truly saved
b) Jesus lied about not dying ever again
c) Jesus was NOT speaking about physical death

Of course Jesus was physically raised. No preterist I know of denys this.

But do you say all will be physically resurrected as Jesus was? The case of Lazarus is not the same - he was resurrected with the same old physical body that died again.

Homer wrote:But do you say all will be physically resurrected as Jesus was? The case of Lazarus is not the same - he was resurrected with the same old physical body that died again.

May I inquire what exactly was different about Christ's physical body after the resurrection? Please be specific. Saying it was glorified is not nearly specific enough unless you explain HOW it was glorified. In other words, you would have to contrast the regular, normal physical body with Christ's glorified body in order to show the differences...

I am really interested in this answer. I don't believe I have ever seen the question asked, and naturally, I have never seen the answer.

Homer wrote:What say you, preterist? I believe Jesus gave up what He was prior to the incarnation and forever remains "The Son".

I hope you won't think me too overbearing when I ask for the Scripture(s) that indicates Jesus did not return to his normal state prior to the Incarnation. Not arguing either way, just finally trying to determine where this thinking comes from. I don't ever remember getting a Scriptural outline for that particular reasoning when I was a futurist. I think pinning an entire doctrine on the opinion of an interpretation of a perfect participle is a little risky...

If I have to accept that interpretation on the perfect participle, then it stands to reason that you would have to accept the present passive tense in 1 Corinthians 15 as well, such as:

Verse 2 - “also ye are being saved” (YLT).
Verse 12 - “Now if Christ is being preached”
Verse 15 - “we are being found...are not being raised”
Verse 16 - “are not being raised”
Verse 26 - “the last enemy being destroyed”*** (profound implications)
Verse 32 - “If the dead ones are not being raised”
Verse 35 - “how are the dead being raised, with what body are they coming?”
Verse 42-44 - “The body is being sown...it is being raised...it is being sown...
it is being raised...it is being sown...it is being raised...it is being sown...it is being raised

And it is not even an interpretation or opinion! That is how the present passive tense works. But I know your future paradigm won't permit that usage...

Homer wrote:But do you say all will be physically resurrected as Jesus was?

I do not say that. The Bible says we will be like Him (1 John 3:2) But that is in reference to the kingdom coming in fully and for those still alive and breathing. The Bible does not teach anything about believers ever needing a resurrection from death. In the very same chapter of John 11 we see that even though our bodies die, we never die. The old covenat people were the only people who had the promise of the resurrection from the dead. This was fulfilled at the time of the New Covenant fully come in. It was the same resurrection Daniel in Daniel 12 was told he too would wait for in sleep as his fathers before him did. The resurrection of the OC saints was only for Israel and for no one else. Even the unfaithful dead of Israel were raised but to destruction.

Homer wrote:The case of Lazarus is not the same - he was resurrected with the same old physical body that died again.

True, Lazarus was raised by is body being reanimated. It was not the same kind of resurrection as that of Jesus. Lazarus, Martha and all people of the 1st century church have since died - but Jesus said:
"...And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Homer, what is Jesus speaking about here. Is He describing the resurrection of the dead or some other event?

Mellontes asked:

May I inquire what exactly was different about Christ's physical body after the resurrection? Please be specific. Saying it was glorified is not nearly specific enough unless you explain HOW it was glorified. In other words, you would have to contrast the regular, normal physical body with Christ's glorified body in order to show the differences...

I am really interested in this answer. I don't believe I have ever seen the question asked, and naturally, I have never seen the answer.

I will not speculate or go beyond what the scriptures indicate. Paul informs us that there is an aspect of mystery (1Corinthians 15) concerning the resurrected state. We know from scripture that Jesus' resurrected body was sensible in that He could be felt and seen (God is invisible), and that He consumed physical food on more than one occasion. The scars from His crucifixion remained. Paul referred to Jesus' resurrection as proof there will be a resurrection from the dead for us.

You justifiably place much value on what certain things would have meant to the people of Jesus' day who heard Him speak. Consider Paul's reference to Jesus' resurrection being the firstfruit of our resurrection. The firstfruit is exactly that: the first of a crop of which that which follows is exactly the same. Ask yourself what Paul's readers would have thought? Jesus was raised with a physical body.

Paul also used the analogy of a seed sown. There is always some correspondence of the plant that rises from a seed to that which the seed came from, yet there can be better characteristics. We have some birch trees on our property. They all came from seed, but there is variation in the trees. One group of three look different in that one is huge, with limbs as big as the trunks of the other two, yet they are all birch trees. Likewise Paul informs us of differences in our new bodies. They will be imperishable, glorified, with inherent power, immortal, and will be "raised a spiritual body". It is important to note that Paul said pneumatikos soma. He did not say raised a spirit, but a spiritual body, meaning a supernatural body, but still a body.

And also asked:

I hope you won't think me too overbearing when I ask for the Scripture(s) that indicates Jesus did not return to his normal state prior to the Incarnation. Not arguing either way, just finally trying to determine where this thinking comes from.

It is perhaps a bit off topic, but I believe Jesus existed as "The Angel of The Lord" prior to His incarnation. I do not think that important to discuss on this thread, but His Sonship is. He is now, in His resurrected state, the Son of God. John informs us that we have eternal life by believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, not "was". Both Christ and Son are aspects of who He is now.

Homer wrote:Paul referred to Jesus' resurrection as proof there will be a resurrection from the dead for us.

No Paul did not say for us. You might be adding that in because you think we are to participate in the resurrection of the dead. The Scriptures say that the resurrection of the dead (that resurrection out of the dust of the grave) was for Daniel's people. Not once is it said it is for those saved through the Gospel of Christ.

1 Cor. 15
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

There are two separate parts to this topic of Christ's resurrection. One is the resurrection of the dead (not of us as you said) Those are srictly the children of Israel of the Old Covenant economy.

The second is concerning those who have fallen asleep in Christ. These are those who are immediately with the Lord and under the New Covenant Gospel have been saved and upon their death are in the Lords presence - still depending on the resurrection of Christ which completed the hope of eternal life for the dead who would die from that point until His coming.

Homer wrote: I will not speculate or go beyond what the scriptures indicate. Paul informs us that there is an aspect of mystery (1Corinthians 15) concerning the resurrected state. We know from scripture that Jesus' resurrected body was sensible in that He could be felt and seen (God is invisible), and that He consumed physical food on more than one occasion. The scars from His crucifixion remained. Paul referred to Jesus' resurrection as proof there will be a resurrection from the dead for us.

You justifiably place much value on what certain things would have meant to the people of Jesus' day who heard Him speak. Consider Paul's reference to Jesus' resurrection being the firstfruit of our resurrection. The firstfruit is exactly that: the first of a crop of which that which follows is exactly the same. Ask yourself what Paul's readers would have thought? Jesus was raised with a physical body.

Paul also used the analogy of a seed sown. There is always some correspondence of the plant that rises from a seed to that which the seed came from, yet there can be better characteristics. We have some birch trees on our property. They all came from seed, but there is variation in the trees. One group of three look different in that one is huge, with limbs as big as the trunks of the other two, yet they are all birch trees. Likewise Paul informs us of differences in our new bodies. They will be imperishable, glorified, with inherent power, immortal, and will be "raised a spiritual body". It is important to note that Paul said pneumatikos soma. He did not say raised a spirit, but a spiritual body, meaning a supernatural body, but still a body.

And also asked:

I hope you won't think me too overbearing when I ask for the Scripture(s) that indicates Jesus did not return to his normal state prior to the Incarnation. Not arguing either way, just finally trying to determine where this thinking comes from.

It is perhaps a bit off topic, but I believe Jesus existed as "The Angel of The Lord" prior to His incarnation. I do not think that important to discuss on this thread, but His Sonship is. He is now, in His resurrected state, the Son of God. John informs us that we have eternal life by believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, not "was". Both Christ and Son are aspects of who He is now.

I guess the reason I asked was because of the Scripture that says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50). You have indicated Christ's physical condition after resurrection (eating scars, etc.) but you have not demonstrated how His body was glorified in your sense of seeing it used.

As for the firstfruit example, I think you have forgotten the timing involved. Do you really believe the harvest hasn't yet been reaped almost 2,000 years after the first fruits of that harvest?

How would you explain Daniel's use of "Son of God" WELL BEFORE the Incarnation (Daniel 3:25)? I believe the same thing applies to the "Son of man" as well. Perhaps one needs to believe that Jesus was the Son of God in BOTH testaments and both before and after the incarnation in order to have eternal life.

Where was Jesus when He was raised? Was He in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathaea, or was it just His limp and lifeless body that was there? Take every Christian funeral you have ever been to. The preacher points to the casket and says <insert name> is not there; he is in heaven. The same thing with Jesus Christ (except for the heaven part) applies. He was not in His body; he was away fulfilling Matthew 12:39-40. He was not in Mr. Arimathaea's tomb. His body was, but He wasn't. Do you know where he was?

Do you believe Isaiah 25-8-9 is speaking of a physical resurrection or is representative of salvation:

Isaiah 25:8-9 - Isaiah 25:8-98 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.