The Narrow Path Ministries

I never heard of this belief system until recently and ironically i actually find the idea appealing in that we die and immediately spend eternity in heaven with Christ and never return to this wretched planet. I actually love the concept and would like it to be true, however to coin a word Paul used several times in 2nd Cor 4 , there are a few "buts" because in Full-Preterism,

there is no judgment day for the world
Judgment day was in 70AD
Evil just continues and continues in this world
Satan and all demons were destroyed in 70AD
We continue in heaven as ethereal creatures not as Christ is with a supernatural body
The resurrection took place in 70AD
The "age to come" started in 70AD
Christ returned in 70AD
The atonement was completed in 70AD


So if there is no more judgment day, no more white throne judgment then there is no more accountability, an end to evil since it all was consummated in 70AD, so just go out drink, party,and be merry since judgment is finished. Really consistent Full-Preterism really should equate with Universalism since we are all home free.
Little did we know all those warnings were only meant for the jews and only the jews up to 70AD.

Now i suspect that Full-Preterists have modified their system in some way to address these issues but i'm curious to hear how they have. What did'nt end in 70AD?

What did'nt end in 70AD?

The World!! Why because the Bible teaches that the world is without end. But then anyone who abuses a friend by calling him a derogatory term instead of the proper term(s) such as Full-preterist, or believer of full eschatology, or consistent eschatology - that person has a forced agenda outside of Biblical teaching and would rather stick to unprovable assertions rather than studying what the word actually says.

The World!! Why because the Bible teaches that the world is without end. But then anyone who abuses a friend by calling him a derogatory term instead of the proper term(s) such as Full-preterist, or believer of full eschatology, or consistent eschatology - that person has a forced agenda outside of Biblical teaching and would rather stick to unprovable assertions rather than studying what the word actually says.







My apologies if hyper-preterism is derogatory. It's the description i've seen used, i didn't invent it. If you prefer full-preterism i'll edit my topic if i can. In the meantime can you address any issues such as since judgment day has passed as of 70AD, are folks judged afterwards? Is the lake of fire still around, what happens to unbelievers and is there still a judgment.
Do full-preterists all see this the same or is it a matter of personal opinion?

Thanks for your courtesy, Steve. I had not seen you use the term before so I knew you had to read it from somewhere.

To your question.

It is apointed unto man once to die and then the judgement. This means that yes the lake of fire would still exist but it also means that there is no longer any waiting.

Would you care to explain John 11:25-26 for me?

Would you care to explain Rev. 14 leading up to verse 13?
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”

It is apointed unto man once to die and then the judgement. This means that yes the lake of fire would still exist but it also means that there is no longer any waiting.





Who judges since if i understand correctly judgment happened in 70AD? Why would this verse go beyond 70AD when it sounds like everything else is consummated in 70AD? Also if you believe evil no longer exists what is there to judge.
In other words if this is "the age to come" isn't evil done away with? What would be judged?
I'll get back to you on your 2 questions.

Greetings -

On John 11:25-26 (though I wasn't asked, I'll chime in, hope y'all don't mind)!

I had notes on the Greek in these verses (but they got lost in a computer crash recently)! I'll post a paraphrased, but yet literal translation from what I can recall.

John 11 (italics with brackets not in Greek, but is implied by the Greek) -
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever is believing in me, though they may die, they shall live [again, upon the resurrection].
26 And anyone alive who is believing in me shall [thus, upon being resurrected], never die [again forever]. Do you believe this?"

It's too bad I lost my notes! I had both verses completely "laid out" with the Greek!

Just my IMOs, Thanks!

steve7150 wrote:It is apointed unto man once to die and then the judgement. This means that yes the lake of fire would still exist but it also means that there is no longer any waiting.





Who judges since if i understand correctly judgment happened in 70AD? Why would this verse go beyond 70AD when it sounds like everything else is consummated in 70AD? Also if you believe evil no longer exists what is there to judge.
Another words if this is "the age to come" isn't evil done away with? What would be judged?
I'll get back to you on your 2 questions.

Steve,
There is now no condemnation for those in Christ. We are in the kingdom of God. That means salvation - Not guilty before God. Thos outside of Christ are judged according to their works. In that judgment no one can be saved for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore judgment is this: if in Christ "well done though good and faithful servant". If not in Christ "I know you not, depart from me".

Evil exists just like it does in the mention of the new heaven and new earth (another thing futurists do not understand) but in Christ there is no more sin even though we sin because God does not see our sin - He sees His Son and the shedding of His blood.

steve7150 wrote:I never heard of this belief system until recently and ironically i actually find the idea appealing in that we die and immediately spend eternity in heaven with Christ and never return to this wretched planet. I actually love the concept and would like it to be true, however to coin a word Paul used several times in 2nd Cor 4 , there are a few "buts" because in Full-Preterism,

there is no judgment day for the world
Judgment day was in 70AD
Evil just continues and continues in this world
Satan and all demons were destroyed in 70AD
We continue in heaven as ethereal creatures not as Christ is with a supernatural body
The resurrection took place in 70AD
The "age to come" started in 70AD
Christ returned in 70AD
The atonement was completed in 70AD


So if there is no more judgment day, no more white throne judgment then there is no more accountability, an end to evil since it all was consummated in 70AD, so just go out drink, party,and be merry since judgment is finished. Really consistent Full-Preterism really should equate with Universalism since we are all home free.
Little did we know all those warnings were only meant for the jews and only the jews up to 70AD.

Now i suspect that Full-Preterists have modified their system in some way to address these issues but i'm curious to hear how they have. What did'nt end in 70AD?

First, most Christians believe in eternal, or everlasting, punishment. Even if we propose that it is the Devil and "the beast and the false prophet" (Rev. 20:10) who are the only ones who suffer eternally, that would still add up to a cosmos wherein sin and suffering continue forever and ever. To have planet Earth free from sin and suffering while sin and suffering continue elsewhere for eternity ("the lake of fire") does not solve the philosophical problem of the existence of sin and suffering. Therefore the idea of a universe in which sin and suffering continue for eternity is not at all a uniquely preterist problem. Unless you are a Universalist or an annihilationist, it seems that your objection may have more to do with the locale of sin and suffering than with the existence of sin and suffering.

It is true that preterists (or at least most preterist) see no prophecy in the Bible which says or implies that every individual on planet Earth will one day be absolutely and literally and in every sense free from all sin and suffering. In fact, preterists see verses that indirectly say that the existence of sin will continue "forever." Here are some of those verses:

Ps. 110:4: "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

Since Christ is a Priest on behalf of sinners "forever," we can infer that sinners will exist on earth "forever" to enjoy the ministry of forgiveness of sins in Christ.

Rev. 14:6: "...the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth..." (Rev. 14:6).

Since the Gospel, which is for sinners that dwell on the earth, is "everlasting," we can infer that sinners will be born on earth everlastingly to enjoy the blessings of the Gospel.

In Rev. 22:2, on "the new earth," we see "the Tree of life" that yields fruit every month, the "leaves" of which are "for the healing of the nations" (Rev. 22:2). This teaches us that in the new earth, "the nations" are in need of continual healing.

We must also infer from the above verses that the continued existence of sin in the "new earth" in no way implies the victory of sin. Nor does the continued existence of sin in the universe at all imply a "stalemate" between righteousness and sin. If it did, then we would be forced to say that God has as of yet won zero decisive victories over sin (except in Christ Himself), since sin still exists. The idea that the existence of sin in the universe implies the non-victory of righteousness in the universe is an existential philosophy that devalues all that has thus far been wrought by the death and resurrection of Christ.

It seems that many cannot be satisfied with anything less than a literal utopia that is characterized by absolute "behavioral errorlessness" throughout the entire universe (except for in the lake of fire). But does the existence of sin on Earth really imply an un-done-ness of God's purposes? God says that He created "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" in order "that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy." Although sin exists, God is victorious over sin every day: "Every morning I will destroy all the wicked of the Land, so as to cut off from the city of the Lord all those who do iniquity" (Ps. 101:8).

God's "created order" is certainly not "the best of all possible worlds" for the unbelieving (if we define "best" as what best contributes to their blessedness and success). But it is the best of all possible worlds, "to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Rom. 8:28).

Now, to narrow in on your question, "What do preterists say about didn't end?":

In view of the fact that God said His creation is "very good," and remembering that God promised to never again curse the ground or destroy mankind as He promised after the Flood, we cannot possibly expect that God will bring a cataclysmic judgment to end the generations of mankind. It should further come as no surprise to find that the Scriptures tell us that the kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).

Whether or not "forever" is literally infinite aeons or indefinite aeons with a theoretical end, it is still as far into the future as the Bible goes. The Bible says nothing of a termination to the forever-ness of Christ's kingdom on Earth. We can biblically say nothing about a "post-Christian age," because there is no such thing.

Some will say that if this is the case, if history is to continue indefinitely with the existence of sin and with no "Second Coming" to bring it to a termination, then that must mean that mankind is stuck in a "status quo" cycle of endless, "go-no-where" history. But to see that history cannot be so characterized in the preterist view, we need only consider the conquering nature of Christ's kingdom.

The Bible describes the Kingdom of Christ on earth as a kingdom that will increase until it covers "the whole earth" "as the waters cover the sea" (Isa. 11:9; Dan 2:35; cf. Matt. 13:33). According to the Scriptures, it will increase on earth until all of God's enemies are "under His feet" (I Cor. 15:25). The Scriptures further say that the Kingdom will bring blessing to "all the families of the earth" (Gen. 12:3; Ps. 22:7); to "all the nations" (Matt. 28:19; Ps. 72:17; Ps. 86:9); to "all men" (Isa. 66:23), even to "the very ends of the earth" (Ps. Ps. 2:8; 22:27; 72:8; Isa. 11:9; Zech. 9:10; Acts 1:8; 13:47).

Though (full) preterists see the above "dominion verses" as being fulfilled in 70 (and so interpret the verses synecdochically and hyperbolically), preterists necessarily infer from those passages what is the divine character/nature of the Church. The above descriptions of the Church's first-century victory in the world invariable betoken the Church's progressive dominion throughout history. The Church did not stop being the Church after it was established in 70. Rather, it was born conquering, it was established conquering and it forever conquers to the glory of Christ! As the Scriptures teach:

"May his name endure forever; May his name increase as long as the sun shines...." (Ps. 72:17).

"There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore...." (Isa. 9:7).

Yet futurists ask incredulously, "Toward what is history progressing if sin continues to exist and history is not going to end?"

The goal is none other than that the elect of every generation hear the gospel and that all who trust in the sin-atoning blood of Christ attain unto that for which mankind was created: To love God with all his heart, soul and mind, and his neighbor as himself (Matt. 22:37-39; Mk. 12:30-31; Lk. 10:27-28). We must not think that the continued existence of sin on earth invalidates the possibility or the perfection of the realization of that goal.

Preterists do not know future events, but we are fully confident in the fact that whatever the conquering Savior pleases to do, He does, on earth as in heaven (Ps. 135:6). And when we consider the divine eternality of the Church on earth and her progressive divine dominion, we know that her future, and hence the future of humanity, will be filled to overflowing with innumerable blessings which are even now utterly impossible for us to grasp. What wonders will God work in and through His more-than-conquering Church after 10,000 years, or after 1,000,000 years of victory? Only God can know (Eccl. 3:11).

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, unto him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21).

Ps. 110:4: "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

Since Christ is a Priest on behalf of sinners "forever," we can infer that sinners will exist on earth "forever" to enjoy the ministry of forgiveness of sins in Christ.

Rev. 14:6: "...the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth..." (Rev. 14:6).

Since the Gospel, which is for sinners that dwell on the earth, is "everlasting," we can infer that sinners will be born on earth everlastingly to enjoy the blessings of the Gospel.

In Rev. 22:2, on "the new earth," we see "the Tree of life" that yields fruit every month, the "leaves" of which are "for the healing of the nations" (Rev. 22:2). This teaches us that in the new earth, "the nations" are in need of continual healing.

We must also infer from the above verses that the continued existence of sin in the "new earth" in no way implies the victory of sin. Nor does the continued existence of sin in the universe at all imply a "stalemate" between righteousness and sin. If it did, then we would be forced to say that God has as of yet won zero decisive victories over sin (except in Christ Himself), since sin still exists. The idea that the existence of sin in the universe implies the non-victory of righteousness in the universe is an existential philosophy that devalues all that has thus far been wrought by the death and resurrection of Christ.

It seems that many cannot be satisfied with anything less than a literal utopia that is characterized by absolute "behavioral errorlessness" throughout the entire universe (except for in the lake of fire). But does the existence of sin on Earth really imply an un-done-ness of God's purposes? God says that He created "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" in order "that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy." Although sin exists, God is victorious over sin every day: "Every morning I will destroy all the wicked of the Land, so as to cut off from the city of the Lord all those who do iniquity" (Ps. 101:8).

God's "created order" is certainly not "the best of all possible worlds" for the unbelieving (if we define "best" as what best contributes to their blessedness and success). But it is the best of all possible worlds, "to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Rom. 8:28).

Now, to narrow in on your question, "What do preterists say about didn't end?":

In view of the fact that God said His creation is "very good," and remembering that God promised to never again curse the ground or destroy mankind as He promised after the Flood, we cannot possibly expect that God will bring a cataclysmic judgment to end the generations of mankind. It should further come as no surprise to find that the Scriptures tell us that the kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).

Whether or not "forever" is literally infinite aeons or indefinite aeons with a theoretical end, it is still as far into the future as the Bible goes. The Bible says nothing of a termination to the forever-ness of Christ's kingdom on Earth. We can biblically say nothing about a "post-Christian age," because there is no such thing.

Some will say that if this is the case, if history is to continue indefinitely with the existence of sin and with no "Second Coming" to bring it to a termination, then that must mean that mankind is stuck in a "status quo" cycle of endless, "go-no-where" history. But to see that history cannot be so characterized in the preterist view, we need only consider the conquering nature of Christ's kingdom.

The Bible describes the Kingdom of Christ on earth as a kingdom that will increase until it covers "the whole earth" "as the waters cover the sea" (Isa. 11:9; Dan 2:35; cf. Matt. 13:33). According to the Scriptures, it will increase on earth until all of God's enemies are "under His feet" (I Cor. 15:25). The Scriptures further say that the Kingdom will bring blessing to "all the families of the earth" (Gen. 12:3; Ps. 22:7); to "all the nations" (Matt. 28:19; Ps. 72:17; Ps. 86:9); to "all men" (Isa. 66:23), even to "the very ends of the earth" (Ps. Ps. 2:8; 22:27; 72:8; Isa. 11:9; Zech. 9:10; Acts 1:8; 13:47).

Though (full) preterists see the above "dominion verses" as being fulfilled in 70 (and so interpret the verses synecdochically and hyperbolically), preterists necessarily infer from those passages what is the divine character/nature of the Church. The above descriptions of the Church's first-century victory in the world invariable betoken the Church's progressive dominion throughout history. The Church did not stop being the Church after it was established in 70. Rather, it was born conquering, it was established conquering and it forever conquers to the glory of Christ! As the Scriptures teach:

"May his name endure forever; May his name increase as long as the sun shines...." (Ps. 72:17).

"There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore...." (Isa. 9:7).

Yet futurists ask incredulously, "Toward what is history progressing if sin continues to exist and history is not going to end?"





Allyn,
You really said a mouthful but you did bring up interesting points. The first issue that screams out at me is the fact the Preterism believes Satan is finished in 70AD yet evil continues in the world indefinitely. "Ha Satan" , i believe translated as "the Adversary" is destroyed yet evil just continues unabated and unaffected and statistically there were more murders by evil men like Stalin, Hitler and many others in the 20th century then ever before! Hard to believe Satan is gone because if you count abortion as murder it seems like evil is growing. Satan was not just an incidental opponent , Paul called him the god of this world and Father God considered Satan a worthy opponent to test Jesus in the wilderness.
You brought up some good points earlier which i want to answer but initially this continuence and IMO growth of evil, in this "age to come" without the prince of evil is difficult to reconcile with reality.

Steve,
You seem to find it hard to believe that mankind is perfectly capable of fabricating evil on their own. However it is not unique to full-preterism that Satan is out of the way. I believe the administrators of this discussion board have Satan bound and incapacitated as well. I haven't seen any objections from you to them. Lets be fair, brother.

Happy Independence Day!