The Narrow Path Ministries

Hello,

I have been reading up on James Stuart Russell's position and find it very interesting. I myself have never been able to reconcile the full preterist position and find James Stuart Russell's position a possibility that, at least at this time, I find very interesting and would recommend investigating if you have not already.

Duncan Mckenzie has posted something I stumbled upon recently that highlights James Stuart Russell's position and contrasts that with the full preterist position. He offers up some very good points of criticism of the full preterist position that I believe are logical and very well written.

here is the link.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/ ... erism.html

I enjoyed reading his article and learned a bit about James Stuart Russell and another "partial preterist position" that helps bring together "loose ends" that I had lingering for some years now. Thanks Duncan.

Douglas

Douglas wrote:Hello,

I have been reading up on James Stuart Russell's position and find it very interesting. I myself have never been able to reconcile the full preterist position and find James Stuart Russell's position a possibility that, at least at this time, I find very interesting and would recommend investigating if you have not already.

Duncan Mckenzie has posted something I stumbled upon recently that highlights James Stuart Russell's position and contrasts that with the full preterist position. He offers up some very good points of criticism of the full preterist position that I believe are logical and very well written.

here is the link.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/ ... erism.html

I enjoyed reading his article and learned a bit about James Stuart Russell and another "partial preterist position" that helps bring together "loose ends" that I had lingering for some years now. Thanks Duncan.

Douglas

Hi Doug, Have you ever read J. Stuart Russell's book? If you haven't, you should make sure you read it yourself. Some times it is a tad bit different than learning about it through snippets with another person's view attached. I am not saying Duncan misrepresented anything.

Anyway, here is an article that offers some contrary insight. I bet you partials are thinking "oxymoron," or maybe just plain "moron."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Does Satan (devil) get thown into the lake before this GWT judgment - yes or no?

Revelation 20
10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Did this judgment have to occur before some standing there had tasted death - yes or no?

Matthew 16
27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. 28"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Did the opening of the books / judgment - occur at AD70 - yes or no?

Daniel 12
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed

IF: Satan is thrown into the Lake at the beginning of the GWT judgment.

AND: The Great White Throne Judgment happens at AD70 (before some standing there tasted death) / (books opened when the power of the holy people was shattered).

THEN: Satan was thrown into the lake at the beginning of the GWT Judgment and had to have happened at AD70.

There are TIME TEXTS involved with this judgment.

1 Peter 4
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Revelation 1 is about things that were past, pretsent and ABOUT TO occur. NOTHING ELSE.

Revelation 1 (Youngs Literal - MELLO)
19`Write the things that thou hast seen (GOSPELS), and the things that are (EPISTLES), and the things that are about to come after these things;

The resurrection of the dead occurs after Satan is thrown in the lake. The resurrection was "MELLO" ABOUT TO occur.

Revelation 20
10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Acts 24 (Youngs Literal - MELLO)
15having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

CONCLUSION: As a PRETERIST there is no way around the fact that Satan was thrown into the lake of fire at the START of the Great White Throne Judgment of AD70.

NOW, ONE MORE THING: Is there any reason why 1000 years can not be the 40 year transition period? All we have to do is compare Peter and Revelation and we will see that they are talking about the SAME event.

1 Peter 1:1 church in asia
Rev 1:4 church in asia

1 Peter 2:9 made a preisthood
Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6 kingdom of priests

1 Peter 4:5 ready to judge living and the dead <= TIME TEXT
Rev 11, and 20 judge the living and the dead <= HAPPENS AFTER SATAN THROWN IN LAKE

1 Peter 1:20 foundation of the world
Rev 13:8 foundation of the world

1 Peter 4:17 judge family of God
Rev 4 warnings against churches

1 Peter 5:13 Babylon
Rev 14, 16, 17, and 18 Babylon

1 Peter 5:8-10 resist Devil, suffer a little while
Rev 20:3 released for a short time

2 Peter 2:4 angels chains
Rev 20:1-3 chains

2 Peter 3:13 new heaven and new earth
Rev 20:11, Rev 21 heaven and earth flee, New heaven and earth

2 Peter 3:8 day a thousand years, thousand years a day
Rev 20:2 thousand years

2 Peter 3:10 like a thief
Rev 3:3, 16:15 like a thief

I conclude that the 1000 years that John was writing about is the same event that Peter was writing about when he said one day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is as one day. John did not write about things outside of things ABOUT TO (mello) occur.

Therefore: The 1000 years was the transition period and fits PERFECTLY with the logical proof above, that the Devil was thrown in the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the AD70 judgment.

Source: http://preterism.ning.com/profiles/blog ... Post:13449

Hey Douglas,

Thanks for the kind words. I will send you the fifty dollars I promised you for the plug later (that is supposed to be a joke :-) There is another article on Russell I wrote some time later. It is entitled "J.S. Russel's Position on the Millennium, the Neglected Third Way of Preterismm" see here. http://sites.google.com/site/antichrist ... -preterism

I got a chuckle when I looked at the article you referenced. In it I wrote:

"I am currently working on a book on the Antichrist/Beast. I have written 250 pages and have about 100 more pages to go."

That was in 2001. The book grew so big (about 1,000 pages) that I had to make it into two volumes. I am still putting the finishing touches on volume II (hopefully out next year). Despite all the pages, the book is very readable. Reviews of volume I are here http://www.amazon.com/Antichrist-Second ... ewpoints=1 . God Bless.

Most people are not familier with J.S. Russell's position on the millennium. I have summarized it below. When I was first exposed to this position I rejected it. What finally made me accept it, is because I see Daniel 7:8-10 supporting it.

As to the question of, Does Satan (devil) get thown into the lake before the GWT judgment - yes or no? Russell's position says "No." Allow me to explain.


James Stuart Russell proposed that what seems to be two separate throne scenes in Revelation 20:4 and 20:11-15 are really one throne scene (that occurs at the AD 70 beginning of the millennium). Russell’s position maintains that, in Revelation 20:4, John describes the setting up of God’s kingdom (v. 4, “And I saw thrones and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them . . .” cf. Dan. 7:9). In verses 7-10, John digresses and talks about what would happen at the end of the millennium (v. 7, “Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison”). In verse 11, John continues his description of the throne scene and judgment that he began in Revelation 20:4 (“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it . . .” cf. Dan. 7:9). If put sequentially, Russell’s position would look as follows:

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones and they sat on them and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witnesses to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev. 20:11-15 Then I saw a great throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev. 7-10 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Thus, my position is that Revelation 20:4-15 is describing one throne scene that occurs at the beginning of the millennium with a parenthetical description on what will happen at the millennium’s end in Revelation 20:7-10. This sounds a bit strange at first, but Daniel 7:9-10 supports it (see below, I have added the corresponding points from Rev. 20 in brackets.)

8. “I was considering the horns and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.
9. “I watched till thrones were put in place [cf. Rev. 20:4], and the Ancient of Days was seated [cf. Rev. 20:11]; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire;
10. “a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him [cf. 20:12]. The court was seated [cf. 20:4] and the books were opened [cf. Rev. 20:12].

For my discussion of Daniel 7 go to the Google preview of my book (start on page 99; be sure to hit the full screen icon to make it easier to read :-) http://books.google.com/books?id=ZL89vm ... st+and+the+...

According to Daniel 7:9-10, thrones are put in place at the same time that God takes his throne. This shows all five of the events that take place in Revelation 20:4 and 11-12 as happening at the same time:

A. Thrones put in place (Dan. 7:9; Rev. 20:4).
B. God takes His throne (Dan. 7:9; Rev. 20:11).
C. Myriads before the throne (Dan. 7:10; Rev. 20:12).
D. Those on the thrones having authority to judge (Dan. 7:10; Rev. 20:4).
E. Books are opened (Dan. 7:10; Rev. 20:12).

All of these events were all to happen at the AD 70 beginning of the kingdom/millennial reign. Thus, those on the thrones in Revelation 20:4 are being given authority to judge as they join with God as He judges the world in Revelation 20:11-15 (cf. Matt. 19:28; 1 Corinthians 6:2).

Like Daniel 7:8-10, Daniel 7:23-27 show that it is at the AD 70 defeat of the little eleventh horn that thrones are put in place as the court is seated; it is at this time that the saints fully enter into the kingdom reign (for more examples of the post-parousia reign of God’s people see Luke 19:11-27; Rev. 2:25-27; 3:21). Daniel 7:21-22 shows this also, and it could not be clearer—It is at the AD 70 coming of God to defeat the Antichrist that the saints fully possess the kingdom of God

I was watching and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. Dan. 7:21-22

This parallels Revelation 19-20 where the Word of God comes and defeats the beast (Rev. 19:11-21) and then the saints fully possess the kingdom of God as the millennium begins (Rev. 20:4). This post-tribulational (i.e., AD 70) beginning to the millennium explains why one of the groups that come alive at the beginning of the millennium consists of dead people “who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands” (Rev. 20:4). These are martyrs of the beast who had been killed in the great tribulation of AD 67-70 (cf. Rev. 13:4-18) who are resurrected at AD 70 to participate in the millennial reign (cf. Rev. 11:7-19).

My position violates the de facto creed of full preterism that requires all prophecy to be fulfilled by AD 70 (as my position sees a final end to evil in the future, Rev. 20:7-10). It thus has to be rejected by full preterists—it is either that or they have to adjust their paradigm (something that is not going to happen).

Duncan wrote:...My position violates the de facto creed of full preterism that requires all prophecy to be fulfilled by AD 70 (as my position sees a final end to evil in the future, Rev. 20:7-10). It thus has to be rejected by full preterists—it is either that or they have to adjust their paradigm (something that is not going to happen).

Duncan,

Since you see an end to evil, does that mean:

1) Human kind continues to live on planet Earth without evil at one particular point in time and still procreates?
2) There will be no more planet Earth?
3) Human kind will no longer be dwelling on planet Earth but rather in heaven when this time of no evil comes?

Could you briefly explain where humans will be dwelling when this time of "no evil" comes? Does it even apply to humans?

I hope you get the gist of my question...I am really curious.

It would really help if you defined what "evil" is as well. Those who believe all prophecy was fulfilled (with some continuing aspects such as salvation) do believe there was an end to evil as well. We believe this end is fulfilled in Christ. And since Christians are in Christ...well, you get what I mean. So, it is not exactly that we that need to adjust our paradigm because we don't see your evil as ending. Most futurists (if not all) see evil ending in their paradigm but it usually comes along with an eternal hell which contains evil for all of eternity. Even that paradigm doesn't get rid of evil since it is in existence forever. Perhaps what is needed most is the definition of evil. You seem to equate evil with the devil. Help me out here, brother.

. Most futurists (if not all) see evil ending in their paradigm but it usually comes along with an eternal hell which contains evil for all of eternity. Even that paradigm doesn't get rid of evil since it is in existence forever. Perhaps what is needed most is the definition of evil. You seem to equate evil with the devil. Help me out here, brother.






Futurists believe evil will end because the bible says evil will end. "Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Rom 8.21
The creation is not only the believers in Christ but includes all mankind which will be delivered from evil at some point.

steve7150 wrote:. Most futurists (if not all) see evil ending in their paradigm but it usually comes along with an eternal hell which contains evil for all of eternity. Even that paradigm doesn't get rid of evil since it is in existence forever. Perhaps what is needed most is the definition of evil. You seem to equate evil with the devil. Help me out here, brother.

Futurists believe evil will end because the bible says evil will end. "Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Rom 8.21
The creation is not only the believers in Christ but includes all mankind which will be delivered from evil at some point.

So, you are a Universalist then? (reference my underline in your quote)

I'm sorry. Could you point out the word "evil" in that passaage? I must have missed it. As for being delivered from bondage of corruption, I thought that was what Christ came to do for us. I guess I was mistaken on that too.

Perhaps you would be willing to take a stab at the question I asked Duncan????

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 3:14 - We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Futurists believe evil will end because the bible says evil will end. "Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Rom 8.21
The creation is not only the believers in Christ but includes all mankind which will be delivered from evil at some point.

So, you are a Universalist then? (reference my underline in your quote)

I'm sorry. Could you point out the word "evil" in that passaage? I must have missed it. As for being delivered from bondage of corruption, I thought that was what Christ came to do for us. I guess I was mistaken on that too.





No need to be sorry since we both know i'm equating "corruption" with evil. Creation includes all mankind and it could be a universalist verse but i think it includes deliverance or destruction. Evil is destroyed as Paul again repeats in 1st Cor 15.24 "when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
Any power contrary to God that must be put down by Christ is "evil." Paul has been addressing "For as in Adam all die" 1 Cor 22, which again means mankind.

steve7150 wrote:Futurists believe evil will end because the bible says evil will end. "Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Rom 8.21
The creation is not only the believers in Christ but includes all mankind which will be delivered from evil at some point.

So, you are a Universalist then? (reference my underline in your quote)

I'm sorry. Could you point out the word "evil" in that passaage? I must have missed it. As for being delivered from bondage of corruption, I thought that was what Christ came to do for us. I guess I was mistaken on that too.

No need to be sorry since we both know i'm equating "corruption" with evil. Creation includes all mankind and it could be a universalist verse but i think it includes deliverance or destruction. Evil is destroyed as Paul again repeats in 1st Cor 15.24 "when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
Any power contrary to God that must be put down by Christ is "evil." Paul has been addressing "For as in Adam all die" 1 Cor 22, which again means mankind.

Full preterists believe that immortality and incorruption come via the Gospel message through and in Christ. We also believe that the enemy stemming from the all rule and authority refers to old covenant stuff and its general opposition to the initiation of the Gospel. The unbelieving, apostate, rebellious, Christ-hating Jews were absolutely relentless against the church! You believe that all rule and authority applies to everything contrary to God right now.

Christ is the one who gives us immortality through the Gospel since it is sin death that is defeated. Immortality is closely associated or is in conjunction with incorruption.

1 Peter 1:23 - Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Immortality is associated with eternal life. We HAVE eternal life the moment we believe. And if not, when do we get it?

Romans 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

It is a lot more involved in this, but this is just a slight glimpse into these things.

Mellontes (mello=about to),

You are so right with what an informed preterist believes. Where are the Partial preterist Bible students? Any one of them should be able to refute this reasoning with their own Scripture references - but where are they?
They say the resurrection of the dead ones is not even 2000 years close to the teaching, but where is their reasoning?
They say that the Kingdom has not come in yet but where is their justification?
They say that Christ only came in judgment but where is their New Covenant?