Question for Preterists

[robbyyoung]

Homer, your mistake IS NOT recognizing the significance of "the end of the age"

Homer, I think Robby has got you pinned. You see the Judgment has come, and the end has past.
And Robby that was in jest to Homer, but I admit I am seeing some light in your points, and agree to the rational on some of these points.

The promises, works and prophecies surrounding this event WAS NOT given to us. It was given TO THEM. (Robby)

I agree that it was, and so this is the context of a lot of important promises, such as the one given to Abraham, but Abraham's seed is still here, and his children are still being born. The blessings, curses and commands in scripture are often given to one, but it quickly becomes clear, and affirmed, and repeated in scripture that these things start applying to almost everyone (as you may agree). They are given to some, but they become 'our' example. The commands blessings and curses given to Adam and Eve (Gen.1-3) are much like the blessings and such given to others later on:
'To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." 17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return"

'If you can't see that certain events (surrounding the lifetime of the Apostles) were for a specific people at a specific time, you are not paying close enough attention' (Robby)

“… but make them known to your sons and your grandsons. 10 "Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when the LORD said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children…' (Deut 4)
If their children teach their children, then the cycle will never end, thus this statement is good until they all stop producing kids. once you start teaching the children, these commands begin to start applying to all the children, that was the command, afterall.

All of them will be taught, this then must 'still' be in effect: "All your sons will be taught of the LORD; And the well-being of your sons will be great’ (Isaiah 54:13) Now about brotherly love we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other’ (1 Thes.4:9) I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 “He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 “I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men’ (1 Samuel 7)
We now know that God had one greater than Solomon in mind when He said this, but the context allows for both, kinda. Solomon’s kingdom didn’t last forever, but Jesus didn’t commit iniquity either.

'... and you then start to read about the activities of the church, would you be looking to participate in these events? (Robby)

I do look forward to participating in all the promises of scripture, I just don’t want to be an unbeliever during any of those events. If the church dinner didn’t actually come to past, then it didn’t come to pass. I would hope that the dinner will in fact happen sometime, and we are promised that it will happen. But the end of the age was not given a date or time, but an obligation to be ready and watch.
Feast at my banquet table--feast on horses and charioteers, on mighty men and all kinds of valiant warriors, says the Sovereign LORD’ (Ezek 39:20) ‘... that you may feast on the flesh of kings and the flesh of generals and the flesh of mighty men, on the flesh of horses and their riders, and on the flesh of ..." (Rev 19:18)
John repeats the same warning and promise given by Ezekiel, yet this did not happen in 70ad. I do though anticipate that it will happen.
And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one. 10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem… ” (Zech 14:9)

Hi JR,

You obviously posted this while I was responding to Mitzi's post. However, I did briefly touch on some of the aspects of your post. After reading my reply to Mitzi, please regather your thoughts and respond. I think you and I can begin to agree more than not.

God Bless.

[steve7150]

You have asked a powerful, no nonsense question, "Who decides what?", in order to ascertain the "Application" component. We should all agree that the INSPIRED N.T. Authors/Prophets are the ones to make this determination. So what do WE find as WE read THEIR accounts and LETTERS addressed to THEIR AUDIENCE? To appreciate the enormity of the situation in the 1st Century one must FIRST come to grips that THEY are reading someone else's mail, which is almost 2000 years old. Who can deny we are reading an HISTORICAL account of long ago? All the contextual evidence speaks to THAT AUDIENCE concerning the consummation of events in THEIR lifetime. This IS NOT wishful thinking but A FACT.






Although i think the NT writers were inspired to write i don't think it's impossible they could have been wrong about certain things. Paul also acknowledged he was not always inspired in his writings. Additionally all through the bible there was a audience at the time something was said or written but that didn't mean the communications only related to them at that time. There is nothing to indicate anything changed in the NT. So these new ground rules established by Preterists is unproven and arbitrary despite the case that they consider it to be "FACTS" and act like it's their secret sauce.
Lastly the so called "end of age" that Preterists coined is only the end of the Jewish age which either ended in 70AD or 33AD, i think a case could be made for both.
But the Christian age or Church age only just began at Jesus resurrection.

[robbyyoung]

You have asked a powerful, no nonsense question, "Who decides what?", in order to ascertain the "Application" component. We should all agree that the INSPIRED N.T. Authors/Prophets are the ones to make this determination. So what do WE find as WE read THEIR accounts and LETTERS addressed to THEIR AUDIENCE? To appreciate the enormity of the situation in the 1st Century one must FIRST come to grips that THEY are reading someone else's mail, which is almost 2000 years old. Who can deny we are reading an HISTORICAL account of long ago? All the contextual evidence speaks to THAT AUDIENCE concerning the consummation of events in THEIR lifetime. This IS NOT wishful thinking but A FACT.

Although i think the NT writers were inspired to write i don't think it's impossible they could have been wrong about certain things.

Hi steve7150,

Sadly, this is what separates us. This type of theology is on sinking sand, and worst yet, fosters a lying Holy Spirit which is untrustworthy, therefore this brand of Christianity is devoid of trust worthiness, on par with the skeptical atheist. All because of a rejection of Yeshua's (Not The Apostles) time statements. Desperately, people want their worldwide destruction and billions of people to be murdered and killed so they can have their Second Coming, regardless of what the scriptures does or doesn't attribute to them. Let me attempt to give you some exhortation in order for you to rethink your position.

The Apostles DID NOT act on their own concerning truth, for Yeshua said, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. (John 14:26)"

So when Peter says to the Dispersia, "But according to His promise WE are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since YOU look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to YOU, as also in all his letters, speaking in them OF THESE THINGS, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:13-16)" Your analysis would be to question Peter's sanity and inspiration? And what, yield to YOU? I don't think so. The Preterist upholds the inspiration of The Writer. These guys were unique and will NEVER again be matched in their ministry given to them by God The Father. They had an Age Ending mission to accomplish, and praise God they did it. Did you notice what Peter said, "...as they do also the rest of the Scriptures...", what scriptures? That would be The O.T. Taking what The Prophets of Old said, and applying their prophecies as the Anti-Type to the Greater, Spiritual Fulfillment of their day. Sleepers didn't understand then and they don't understand today. The only difference in their day was, if you continued to reject the truth of scripture, you were going to suffer the judgements that came upon The Land.

Paul also acknowledged he was not always inspired in his writings.

So what is your point steve7150? If he confesses to be writing or talking on his own accord, wouldn't this be a clear separation concerning what's from God or not? Of course everything written to their audience wasn't dictated word for word by God. But they made it quite clear when their authority on a matter was from God and corroborated.

Additionally all through the bible there was a audience at the time something was said or written but that didn't mean the communications only related to them at that time. There is nothing to indicate anything changed in the NT.

Here you are showing that you have no idea how types and shadows of the O.T. played their part in Yeshua's first coming and the end of the Old Covenant Age. Their is nothing greater than The Anti-Type, therefore, The Anti-Type can NEVER be a type or shadow to something greater. Yeshua was The Anti-Type and He came to fulfill all types and shadows of The Old Covenant system. Yeshua said, "These are the days of vengeance so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.", He also said, "so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." So you can point to any perceived prophetic judgment in the O.T. and Yeshua said ALL THINGS WRITTEN about it pointed to HIS THEN GENERATION. So why doesn't this matter to the Futurist paradigm?

So these new ground rules established by Preterists is unproven and arbitrary despite the case that they consider it to be "FACTS" and act like it's their secret sauce. Lastly the so called "end of age" that Preterists coined is only the end of the Jewish age which either ended in 70AD or 33AD, i think a case could be made for both.

This is why it's hard to take people like you seriously regarding eschatology. It's like you have no training whatsoever in these things. You have no idea what you are talking about most of the time and it seems as if I'm just wasting my time. Preterists coined "end of the age"? What??? It ended in 33AD? What???? It was the end of the Jewish age? What????

steve7150, get some education on eschatology and especially terms coming straight out of the Bible. You are clearly a babe in these matters and I don't think you're prepared to go any deeper, holding to your faulty presupposition, even to the standards of your fellow Futurists.

God Bless.

[steve7150]

steve7150, get some education on eschatology and especially terms coming straight out of the Bible. You are clearly a babe in these matters and I don't think you're prepared to go any deeper, holding to your faulty presupposition, even to the standards of your fellow Futurists.

God Bless.










Sure Robby, I'll get right on it. Perhaps someday you may preach Jesus half as much as you preach Preterism.

[robbyyoung]

steve7150, get some education on eschatology and especially terms coming straight out of the Bible. You are clearly a babe in these matters and I don't think you're prepared to go any deeper, holding to your faulty presupposition, even to the standards of your fellow Futurists.

God Bless.


Sure Robby, I'll get right on it. Perhaps someday you may preach Jesus half as much as you preach Preterism.

Again, what are you talking about? Did the title of the thread confuse you? Are we preaching Yeshua here or answering questions directed at Preterists? I haven't seen any preaching of Yeshua by you lately, but then again, I have no idea what your personal ministry is, do I? But your frustration is getting the best you, so I'll just leave you alone for now and apologize openly for any perceived ill will towards you. For it's not true and I wish nothing but the peace of God to be with you.

God Bless.

[steve7150]

But your frustration is getting the best you, so I'll just leave you alone for now










I'm not frustrated Robby, i just disagree with you and your interpretations, that's about it.

[jriccitelli]

ALL THINGS WRITTEN about it pointed to HIS THEN GENERATION' (Robby)

“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place..."
Why cant it be the generation that 'sees' these things occurring? I have never found this difficult to consider, it can read that way, and any future generation that see's ‘all these’ specific things happening together will know they will see the end.

[robbyyoung]

ALL THINGS WRITTEN about it pointed to HIS THEN GENERATION' (Robby)

“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place..."
Why cant it be the generation that 'sees' these things occurring? I have never found this difficult to consider, it can read that way, and any future generation that see's ‘all these’ specific things happening together will know they will see the end.

Hi JR,

Quite simply because the overall context doesn't allow it. Starting with Matt 11:16 "this generation" denotes the same greek grammar towards Yeshua's contemporaries. Consider the following exhortations by Yeshua while conversing with HIS contemporaries:

Matt 11:16 "But to what shall I compare this generation?"

Matt 12:41-42 "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment.." "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment"

Matt 23:36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

Matt 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

The overall context is undeniable what "This Generation" denotes. To interpret these texts otherwise would clearly force a unsupported claim. If it's truth we are after regarding proper interpretation, I see no reason to struggle over these passages.

God Bless.

[Homer]

Robby,

You remind me of Ron, a man at work years ago. Ron was very much in the "once saved, always saved" camp. We had a lunchtime bible study with a few Christian men and if you disagreed with Ron about his position he would loudly declare "you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with the word of God!"

I was never much impressed with that tactic.

You wrote:

Matthew's account: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing THEM in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching THEM to observe all that I have commanded YOU. ALL THESE ACCOUNTS ARE CONFLATED WITH A MEANS TO AN END - And behold, I am with YOU always, to the end of the age.

One aspect of The Gospel's means entailed a 1st Century Old Covenant END.

Seeing that the Old Covenant had ended at Calvary:

Colossians 2:14 (NASB)

14. having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

And the New Covenant would be ratified in His blood, in Jesus' own words:

Matthew 26:28 (NASB)

28. for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

And the writer of Hebrews affirms as much:

Hebrews 9:25-26 (NASB)

25. nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

The Old covenant ended at the cross, not 70 AD. The commission Jesus gave to his disciples was not a means to an end of the Old Covenant, it had ended at the cross. The commission to go into all the world and make disciples was given after the cross and resurrection which marked the end of the Old Covenant. It was a commandment (Greek imperative). They were told to make disciples by baptizing converts and teaching them to obey all He had commanded them which included making disciples so, collectively, all disciples down through the ages are obliged to carry out the great commission until Jesus comes again. And His promise to be with them, and us, is still in effect.

[Paidion]