I saw an answer you gave steve regarding this verse before, and it seems very good. My only question is that the trumpet call that accompanies the messengers seems to be exactly like the trumpet of 1cor 15, and 1thess 4, the resurrection passages.
So i guess my question is that is seems to me that the plain meaning is that this verse is referring the the resurrection.
Could you offer some insight to this??
Matt 24:31
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Matt 24:31
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Well, let's look at the surrounding verses and get a little context here:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. The stars will fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the families of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather His elect together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
As I posted in the thread on Isaiah 11, what we have here is 'Creation in reverse' symbolism. The sun and the moon are darkened, whereas in the Creation account they are established as two great lights in the heavens. According to the structure of the textin Genesis 1-3, the sun and the moon being established as lights is in chiastic parallel with Genesis 3:5-7:
"For God knows that in the day you [Adam and Eve] eat of it [the forbidden fruit], your eyes will be ENLIGHTENED and you will be as gods, knowing good and evil." Adam and Eve were like the sun and the moon which had DOMINION over the heavens. (Compare Joseph's dream in Gen. 37:9-10 where the sun and the moon represented Joseph's father and mother.) It was the act of eating the forbidden fruit that gave them DOMINION over the earth. Why? Because they couldn't judge what was right and what was wrong in the earth without first knowing what was right and what was wrong. Most people gain this understanding through the process of growing into maturity (cf. Heb. 5:12-14). Adam and Eve decided to take a short cut, and then were held responsible for choosing good before they were mature enough to do so.
What this relates to in Matthew 24 is the kingdoms of the earth - all of the descendants of Adam and Eve - being shaken and troubled because their earthly wisdom and knowledge is leading them to death and destruction. Also, the "heavenly" kingdom - remember that Satan is "the prince of the power of the air" according to Ephesians 2:2 - is being shaken. (Also see Heb. 12:26-28.) Satan's demons are being cast to earth to kill and destroy. Furthermore, the sun will literally go out, freaking out the entire planet. (There was an article that came out recently which mentioned that suns like our own will go out after burning half of their hydrogen fuel instead of all of it, as was once thought. Our sun has burned about half of its fuel so far.) This happens when the two witnesses are murdered in Jerusalem, because it was only they who were withholding God's wrath upon the earth.
It's in this darkest hour - literally - that Jesus returns. Otherwise, the people would whip themselves into a panic and destroy one another, resulting in all life on this planet being extinguished (Mat. 24:21-22). His heavenly sign appears: a "great light" which grows brighter and brighter until it looks like a sun or star about to hit the earth (cf. Isa. 9:2; 2 Pet. 1:19; Rev. 22:16). Then it dims somewhat so that we can see Jesus within His cloud of glory.
Jesus brings with him the departed spirits of the saints in heaven. Jesus sends His angels to bodily gather the saints, living or dead. Then the resurrection happens and the dead saints' bodies and spirits are rejoined.
Freaky, innit?
As far as the trumpet blast itself, angels' voices are so piercing when they manifest in this physical world that they sound like trumpet blasts. God's voice is the same way. See Isa. 58:1 and Rev. 1:10 and 4:1. When either God or angels manifests physically, this doesn't happen.
Damon
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. The stars will fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the families of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather His elect together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
As I posted in the thread on Isaiah 11, what we have here is 'Creation in reverse' symbolism. The sun and the moon are darkened, whereas in the Creation account they are established as two great lights in the heavens. According to the structure of the textin Genesis 1-3, the sun and the moon being established as lights is in chiastic parallel with Genesis 3:5-7:
"For God knows that in the day you [Adam and Eve] eat of it [the forbidden fruit], your eyes will be ENLIGHTENED and you will be as gods, knowing good and evil." Adam and Eve were like the sun and the moon which had DOMINION over the heavens. (Compare Joseph's dream in Gen. 37:9-10 where the sun and the moon represented Joseph's father and mother.) It was the act of eating the forbidden fruit that gave them DOMINION over the earth. Why? Because they couldn't judge what was right and what was wrong in the earth without first knowing what was right and what was wrong. Most people gain this understanding through the process of growing into maturity (cf. Heb. 5:12-14). Adam and Eve decided to take a short cut, and then were held responsible for choosing good before they were mature enough to do so.
What this relates to in Matthew 24 is the kingdoms of the earth - all of the descendants of Adam and Eve - being shaken and troubled because their earthly wisdom and knowledge is leading them to death and destruction. Also, the "heavenly" kingdom - remember that Satan is "the prince of the power of the air" according to Ephesians 2:2 - is being shaken. (Also see Heb. 12:26-28.) Satan's demons are being cast to earth to kill and destroy. Furthermore, the sun will literally go out, freaking out the entire planet. (There was an article that came out recently which mentioned that suns like our own will go out after burning half of their hydrogen fuel instead of all of it, as was once thought. Our sun has burned about half of its fuel so far.) This happens when the two witnesses are murdered in Jerusalem, because it was only they who were withholding God's wrath upon the earth.
It's in this darkest hour - literally - that Jesus returns. Otherwise, the people would whip themselves into a panic and destroy one another, resulting in all life on this planet being extinguished (Mat. 24:21-22). His heavenly sign appears: a "great light" which grows brighter and brighter until it looks like a sun or star about to hit the earth (cf. Isa. 9:2; 2 Pet. 1:19; Rev. 22:16). Then it dims somewhat so that we can see Jesus within His cloud of glory.
Jesus brings with him the departed spirits of the saints in heaven. Jesus sends His angels to bodily gather the saints, living or dead. Then the resurrection happens and the dead saints' bodies and spirits are rejoined.
Freaky, innit?
As far as the trumpet blast itself, angels' voices are so piercing when they manifest in this physical world that they sound like trumpet blasts. God's voice is the same way. See Isa. 58:1 and Rev. 1:10 and 4:1. When either God or angels manifests physically, this doesn't happen.
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hi Jim,
The image of a trumpet has a variety of uses in scripture. Its appearance in two or three different prophetic contexts does not necessarily mean that it is used with the same significance in each case, nor that the same event is indicated in each. Many, for example, have tried to find, in Paul’s reference to “the last trump” (1 Cor.15:52) an allusion to the "seventh trumpet" in Revelation 11:15ff. While there may (or may not) be identity of subject matter in the two places, Paul could not have been deliberately alluding to the seven trumpets, unless, of course, he had read the book of Revelation—which seems impossible, given the early date of writing for 1 Corinthians.
The possibility that the “loud trumpet” in Matthew 24:31 is the same as that which occurs at the resurrection and rapture (1 Thess.4:16-17/ 1 Cor.15:52) can neither be assumed, nor ruled-out, without prior consideration of the context of both passages. If Matthew 24 is describing the publishing of the Gospel throughout the world through God’s messengers (Gr. angeloi), then the mention of the loud trumpet may symbolically connect this Gentile mission with some Old Testament referent, unrelated to the second coming, wherein trumpets played a significant role.
A brief survey of the use of trumpets in the Old Testament will provide a large variety of possible candidates, many of which might provide a symbolic parallel to the evangelization of the world. Among the ways trumpet blasts were used in the Old Testament (which is the frame of reference for Christ’s language), we find the following.
Trumpets were used to announce the Jewish New Year (Lev.23:24) and the Jubilee Year (Lev.25:9), as well as the beginning of almost any significant religious event (Num.10:10). The preaching of the Gospel is the announcement of the ultimate Jubilee (Luke 4:18-21).
In times of war, the trumpet alerted the nation to impending invasion (Joel 2:1) and gathered the troops to battle (Ezek.7:14/ 1 Cor.14:8). Trumpets played unusual and significant roles in the invasion of Jericho (Josh.6:20) and in the campaign of Gideon against the Midianites (Judges 7:18). Obviously, the church is like an army of God carrying the message of liberty into hostile spiritual territory, and we are engaged in a warfare against the powers of darkness.
The above examples might be said to find a spiritual counterpart in the evangelization of the Gentiles, but there are two other uses which seem particularly apt as being possible reasons for Jesus to use the sounding of a trumpet as a symbol of this campaign.
First, the sounding of trumpets often heralded the rise of a new king (e.g., 2 Sam. 15:10/ 1 Kings 1:34/ 2 Kings 9:13; 11:14). The message of the Gospel is the announcement that “there is another king—one Jesus” (Acts 17:7). It is "this Gospel of the kingdom" that will be proclaimed in all the world before the end comes (Matt.24:14).
Second, Isaiah 27:13 speaks of "a great trumpet" being blown to gather the outcasts who had been ready to perish in Assyria and Egypt. Some would take this as a prediction of a restoration of the Jews, but, for various reasons, I understand it to be a prophecy about the Gentiles coming into the church.
It is, therefore, not necessary to identify the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 with that of the resurrection passages in Paul’s epistles, and there is good reason, especially in the context, to associate it with world evangelization.
The image of a trumpet has a variety of uses in scripture. Its appearance in two or three different prophetic contexts does not necessarily mean that it is used with the same significance in each case, nor that the same event is indicated in each. Many, for example, have tried to find, in Paul’s reference to “the last trump” (1 Cor.15:52) an allusion to the "seventh trumpet" in Revelation 11:15ff. While there may (or may not) be identity of subject matter in the two places, Paul could not have been deliberately alluding to the seven trumpets, unless, of course, he had read the book of Revelation—which seems impossible, given the early date of writing for 1 Corinthians.
The possibility that the “loud trumpet” in Matthew 24:31 is the same as that which occurs at the resurrection and rapture (1 Thess.4:16-17/ 1 Cor.15:52) can neither be assumed, nor ruled-out, without prior consideration of the context of both passages. If Matthew 24 is describing the publishing of the Gospel throughout the world through God’s messengers (Gr. angeloi), then the mention of the loud trumpet may symbolically connect this Gentile mission with some Old Testament referent, unrelated to the second coming, wherein trumpets played a significant role.
A brief survey of the use of trumpets in the Old Testament will provide a large variety of possible candidates, many of which might provide a symbolic parallel to the evangelization of the world. Among the ways trumpet blasts were used in the Old Testament (which is the frame of reference for Christ’s language), we find the following.
Trumpets were used to announce the Jewish New Year (Lev.23:24) and the Jubilee Year (Lev.25:9), as well as the beginning of almost any significant religious event (Num.10:10). The preaching of the Gospel is the announcement of the ultimate Jubilee (Luke 4:18-21).
In times of war, the trumpet alerted the nation to impending invasion (Joel 2:1) and gathered the troops to battle (Ezek.7:14/ 1 Cor.14:8). Trumpets played unusual and significant roles in the invasion of Jericho (Josh.6:20) and in the campaign of Gideon against the Midianites (Judges 7:18). Obviously, the church is like an army of God carrying the message of liberty into hostile spiritual territory, and we are engaged in a warfare against the powers of darkness.
The above examples might be said to find a spiritual counterpart in the evangelization of the Gentiles, but there are two other uses which seem particularly apt as being possible reasons for Jesus to use the sounding of a trumpet as a symbol of this campaign.
First, the sounding of trumpets often heralded the rise of a new king (e.g., 2 Sam. 15:10/ 1 Kings 1:34/ 2 Kings 9:13; 11:14). The message of the Gospel is the announcement that “there is another king—one Jesus” (Acts 17:7). It is "this Gospel of the kingdom" that will be proclaimed in all the world before the end comes (Matt.24:14).
Second, Isaiah 27:13 speaks of "a great trumpet" being blown to gather the outcasts who had been ready to perish in Assyria and Egypt. Some would take this as a prediction of a restoration of the Jews, but, for various reasons, I understand it to be a prophecy about the Gentiles coming into the church.
It is, therefore, not necessary to identify the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 with that of the resurrection passages in Paul’s epistles, and there is good reason, especially in the context, to associate it with world evangelization.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve