The Rapture

[Paidion]

WOW! This thread has meandered a long way from the original topic "The Rapture".

[DanielGracely]

I share your frustration. I never expected my mention of John 10 would take on a life of its own. In hindsight I wonder if we were all duped a little, since regardless of whether that example was even correct, there surely are some insights into Scripture that have come to light only relatively recently, and ought not to be discounted merely because of that.

[Sab]

Back to the topic of the Rapture.

What about 1 Corinthians 15:32 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.

That would be the seventh trumpet - the last. It puts the pre-trib rapture out of the picture somewhat.

[dwilkins]

Back to the topic of the Rapture.

What about 1 Corinthians 15:32 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.

That would be the seventh trumpet - the last. It puts the pre-trib rapture out of the picture somewhat.

I don't know that it would have to be the last trumpet of the seven in Revelation. It might instead be associated with the trumpets used in the fall feasts, which were the only feasts not yet fulfilled at the time of writing 1st Corinthians. Another way of looking at it is that 1st Corinthians was written a decade or so before Revelation. So, Paul's audience wouldn't have known what he was talking about (and Paul might not have known what he was talking about ) if he was referring to the trumpets in Revelation. This wouldn't be a big deal if he hinted in the text that the identity of the trumpet was still a mystery. But, instead it seems to me that he assumes his readers will know what trumpet he's talking about. I'd suggest this points to the festal trumpets.

Doug

[focusedman]

Paidion wrote:
It's true, Jarrod, that the Kingdom of God (or Kingdom of Heaven) began with Jesus and his disciples. Jesus was the King and his disciples were the subjects so that Jesus was able to say to the the scribes and Pharisees, "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you." (Luke 17:21 RSV)

It is refreshing to know that some people realize that the kingdom of God is already here upon the earth. Jesus' whole purpose for coming to earth was to establish his kingdom and die for humanity. Over and over in the scriptures Jesus quoted " repent for the kingdom of God is near" Some people believe that he (Jesus) will establish his kingdom at his second coming, but in Matthew 16:18,19 he used the words kingdom and church interchangeably stating "and on this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven". A kingdom has a king, subjects, he rules over, and a law. That's exactly what the church has. Jesus is our king. The subjects are the disciples, and the Bible is our law. Also it was predicted in the book of Daniel that "In the time of those kings,(the Roman empire,the kingdom of baked clay and partly of iron) the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever". That prediction came true on the day of Pentecost, when the kingdom came with power.

[dwilkins]

I'm curious about what we think the rapture represents. Is it the resurrection they were looking forward to? Is it separate from the resurrection, but more similar to souls ending up standing near the altar waiting for the resurrection? If it's the resurrection, how many resurrections do we expect that there will be?

Doug

[Paidion]

I'm curious about what we think the rapture represents.

I'm not sure what you are asking for here. Most people who speak of the rapture are referring to the underlined words in this passage from I Thessalonians 4:13-17)

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (I Thess. 4:13-17)

Is it the resurrection they were looking forward to?

As a historic premillenialist, I can only speak for myself. The Lord's second coming will occur at the end of "The Great Tribulation period" in which Antichrist or "The Beast" will have a short reign on earth. I think this event of the saints being raptured will coincide with what the Bible calls "The first resurrection." My understanding is that the saints who have died prior to that day will be raised to life, and then the saints who are alive on that day will be "changed" (to the resurrection body without first dying) and be caught up to "meet" the Lord, only to return to the earth with him and all the other resurrected saints, to begin ruling and reigning with Christ during the Millenium period.

Is it separate from the resurrection, but more similar to souls ending up standing near the altar waiting for the resurrection

Nope.

If it's the resurrection, how many resurrections do we expect that there will be?

The Bible indicates two: the one described above, and the one that takes place after the millenium.

[dwilkins]

If it's the resurrection, how many resurrections do we expect that there will be?

The Bible indicates two: the one described above, and the one that takes place after the millenium.

I think your whole answer is a in line with what I expect from Historic Premillennialism. The reason I asked the question is that sometimes when having discussions like this there is some disagreement (especially with dispensationalists) about when the resurrection happens in relation to the rapture. I've heard dispensational responses that indicate up to five or six different resurrections, so I'm always a bit confused about which one, if any, is represented by the rapture.

Regarding your last answer, there is no record in Jewish or Christian history before the writing of Revelation that there would be more than one resurrection. Since the second resurrection of Rev. 20:5a is associated with a textual variant, so that there might be no reference at all in scripture to a second resurrection, how would classical premillennialism address this?

Doug

[focusedman]

Revelation 20:1-3 “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.”

The word for “bottomless pit” in the original Greek is “abussos” or abyss. That same word is used in Genesis 1:2 in the Greek version of the Old Testament in connection with the creation of the earth, but there it is translated “deep” “The earth was without form and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep”. How interesting! The words “deep” “bottomless pit” and “abyss” here refer to the same thing, the earth in its totally dark, disorganized form before God made order of it. John, in describing this earth during the 1,000 years, used virtually the same terms as these in Genesis 1:2 “without form and void,” “no light,” “no man,” and “black” So the battered, dark earth with no people alive will be called the “bottomless pit” or “abyss” during the 1,000 years just as it was in the beginning before creation was completed. Isaiah 24:22 also speaks of Satan and his angels during the 1,000 years as “gathered in the pit and “shut up in the prison.”

Second Resurrection

"The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations." Revelation 20:5, 7, 8.

At the close of the 1,000 years the holy city, New Jerusalem, will down from heaven to this earth. When Jesus comes the third time the wicked will be raised. Satan, loosed from his bonds, will then have an earth full of people (all the nations of the world) to deceive.

[focusedman]

Paidion wrote, As a historic premillenialist, I can only speak for myself. The Lord's second coming will occur at the end of "The Great Tribulation period" in which Antichrist or "The Beast" will have a short reign on earth. I think this event of the saints being raptured will coincide with what the Bible calls "The first resurrection." My understanding is that the saints who have died prior to that day will be raised to life, and then the saints who are alive on that day will be "changed" (to the resurrection body without first dying) and be caught up to "meet" the Lord, only to return to the earth with him and all the other resurrected saints, to begin ruling and reigning with Christ during the Millenium period.

Jesus returns in the clouds for his people, destroys the earth, and ushers in eternity. At this point everyone’s eternal fate is sealed, either you are with God in heaven or dead upon the earth. The righteous: those resurrected, and those caught up, will reign with Christ a thousand years. The living wicked will be slain by the very presence of Christ at the second coming. No one will have an opportunity to repent after the second coming of Christ because everyone will be in one or two places: with Christ in heaven or dead upon the earth. If you wait until after the return of Christ to repent, you would have waited to late. Revelation 22:11, 12 make it clear that the case of every person is closed before Jesus returns.