Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

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RickC
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Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

Post by RickC » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:15 am

I had this under "Miscellaneous" and decided to move it here {mainly because I don't think many people saw it there}....

I did a Greek word study today on John 11:25-26 {in context} using several online resources including: NET Bible with footnotes and translation notes, RYLT (Revised Young's Literal Translation), Greek New Testament {where you can click on individual words and get their: root {or base}, form, type {verb or noun, etc.}, person {1st, 2nd, 3rd}, tense, voice, mood, and number {singular, plural, etc.}.

I've never done a Greek word study on these verses that I can recall, and haven't seen {what I'll call} "the plain, literal meaning" of these verses as clearly as it seems I do now. My former understanding was that Jesus was saying and meaning {something like}:

Jn 11:25I am the resurrection and the life. The one who is believing in me, even if this one may die {literal, bodily death}, shall live {future tense bodily resurrection}.
11:26And the one who lives {now, not having died} and is believing in me shall never die" {I thought he meant: "living people who believe won't really actually fully die" in this verse, even though bodily death may happen to them before the last day/rapture, verse 25}.


To elaborate; probably due to influences of what I had been taught; I felt that though we Christians might die before the rapture, "we won't really and truly die" because we continue to exist in an intermediate state after physical death. My understanding was that physical death was somehow "diminished" to a "won't really die-die" status during this intermediate state of existing. I thought Jesus was trying to convey these things...{or so I had been told}.

Today's Study Findings, {subject to revision, you may want to read John 11 first}

Now it seems Jesus was saying and meaning {and this is my "literal paraphrase" translation with notes included},
"Martha...
Jn 11:25I am the resurrection {lit., "rising again"} and [the source of] the life {of the said resurrection}. The one who is believing in me, even if this one may die {literal death} this one shall live {"again," Greek future tense: bodily resurrection, "life after death"} .
11:26And {so then, too, it follows that} the one who lives {in the future resurrection} and is believing in me shall never die forever" {literal Greek}, Meaning: shall never experience death again after having been resurrected}.


Three things are discussed:
1) The physical death of believers: of those who believe while living, who may die before the return of Jesus.
2) Believers' future physical & bodily resurrection: they who believed while living will never die again forever after the resurrection; what both Jesus, and Martha in this text, referred to as happening on "the last day" (John 11:24).
3) Jesus describes himself as the resurrection itself and the life-source through whom it is obtained or received. A fairly accurate partial-paraphrase translation could be "I am the resurrection and the life of it": "of it" not actually being in the Greek but added in English for explanatory purposes.

From My More Detailed Notes

The phrase "the resurrection and the life" has the conjunction 'and' {Greek, kai}.
Verse 25, "I am the resurrection and the life"
Verse 26a "And the one who lives..."
Strong's #2532 kai
Apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; "and, also, even, so then, too," etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:--"and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet."
__________

Summary

Based on these Greek studies, there's an interconnected relationship between "[the] resurrection and [the] life {of the said resurrection}" as seen above with my literal rendering. In other words, "the resurrection and the life" is a phrase referring to characteristics or attributes of one thing or event. Both the resurrection and the life {of it} are thus, related and interdependent.

My present understandings are: Jesus embodies the resurrection itself in his person; he, himself, being its life-source. Jesus was speaking about life after death; that after death, believers will experience the future {"life after death" bodily} resurrection, and, simply will never experience death again forever.
_______________

This is pretty intricate stuff but was a lot of fun to do!
{Till today, I'd never really "thought through" our text}....
Dost thou have an "What say ye?"
Thanks for reading, :)

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Re: Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

Post by Theophilus » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:59 am

Nice word study. I had the same understanding as you until reading your post and looking at the Scripture more closely. It looks like this could be (not sure as the verb tenses are different) one of those AB - BA kind of constructions. This is a Jewish idiom and I don't recall what the word is to describe it. I inserted the (A) and (B) below.

John 11
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me (A), though he were dead, yet shall he live (B):

26And whosoever liveth (B) and believeth (A) in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I like what you said about Jesus embodying the resurrection and being the life of it. If we remain in Him he will not deny himself!

In a somewhat related note about salvation in Christ, I would like to study Jonah's prayer in Jonah 2. Makes you wonder if Jesus was praying something like this during or after his crucifixion. I know it is not recorded in the Bible so we do not know, but when Jonah was vomited out on dry land it may typify a kind of resurrection. Not sure but worth study.

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Re: Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

Post by psychohmike » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:26 pm

Well...It is certainly my contention that the gospel of John could cause alot of heartache for literalistic fundie's. I also think that passages like Ephesians 2:1-2,4-5 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience...But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,"

And I think the key words here are, "IN CHRIST JESUS."

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

My condensed version of Revelation 21:1-5 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away...for the former things have passed away...Behold, I make all things new.

It is passages like these that pushed me in the direction of preterism. The resurrection was reality in the earthly ministry of Jesus and will continue to be throughout all eternity.

Pmike

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Re: Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

Post by mikew » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:56 pm

I think your original thoughts were a little better.

Martha had just mentioned about the resurrection at the Last Day. It seems that Jesus intended this moment to instruct in a new concept of resurrection which also clarified ideas He spoke before.

Now in the fourth gospel 11:25-26 Jesus was describing the basis for the born again experience in John 3. For example John 3:15 says...
3:15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life [WEB]

So Jesus now in chapter 11 explained that this eternal life would start from His resurrection. Beforehand Jesus did not hardly mention His own resurrection and even less did He indicate any benefit to believers of His resurrection. He sought to provide insight into the born again experience in His teaching before the events of His death and resurrection.

Really, until the Day of Pentecost, there was no one born again (having the Holy Spirit) and this was even subsequent to Jesus' resurrection. The born again experience then was where people first enjoyed the eternal life being promised. This life could not happen until following the resurrection and was not scheduled to be given to disciples until the many weeks after His resurrection.

When someone is born again, he has moved from deadness of the spirit into life. This is the sort of resurrection being mentioned in 11:25-26. So where vs 25 says "even if he dies" means that physical death doesn't terminate our eternal life.

Our born again life comes as a consequence of the resurrection. The life comes by being in Jesus -- and we are able to be in Christ because we were born again.

In saying 11:26 Whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” [WEB] Jesus showed that those who were born again now have true life (eternal life means "knowing God" (17:3). There would not be a spiritual death after being born again and even the physical death would not be a true death (perish, cessation of existence, loss of spiritual life). Paul wrote something similar toward the idea that in his death he would be with Christ. (Phil 1:21)

The confusion in the passage seems to be the result of Jesus describing the effects of His resurrection without really highlighting that He was about to die and be resurrected. And further confusion arose cause even Martha herself (bu also us today) only thought in terms of the physical bodily resurrection that was to come.
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Re: Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

Post by RickC » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:02 pm

Hi Theophilus
You wrote:Nice word study. I had the same understanding as you until reading your post and looking at the Scripture more closely. It looks like this could be (not sure as the verb tenses are different) one of those AB - BA kind of constructions. This is a Jewish idiom and I don't recall what the word is to describe it. I inserted the (A) and (B) below.

John 11
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me (A), though he were dead, yet shall he live (B):

26And whosoever liveth (B) and believeth (A) in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I like what you said about Jesus embodying the resurrection and being the life of it. If we remain in Him he will not deny himself!
Amen!
{2 Tim 2:13 is one of "My Life's Motto Verses"}, :)

I'm glad you found my study useful.
Frankly, I've always been puzzled by these two verses till a day or so ago.

I think Jesus spoke & taught in normative Jewish ways, such as are recorded in the Mishna {an early Jewish writing compiled around 200AD with roots going back to the 1st century}. The word Mishna is derived from a word meaning "repeat {or repetition}" and Mishna means "to repeat." Teaching by repetition: Good idea, people are forgetful, ;)

The Jews also used {clickit} Chiasm in their teaching style.
What you have is like a chiasm {AB, BA}...Good Job too, imo.

Paul also spoke {taught and wrote} in this Jewish repeating or "say it again & again" way.
E.g., Romans 9 (NIV)
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose {A}.
29For those God foreknew {B} he also predestined {C} to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30And those he predestined {C}, he also called {D};
those he called {D}, he also justified {E};
those he justified {E}, he also glorified {all the way back to: A}.


This might be outlined differently beginning, perhaps, with "called" in v. 28(?).
The [hermeneutical] point being: this Jewish method of repetition & adding one concept upon another to form a "block of instruction," etc. The Jews did it so often! I'd imagine it's on almost every page of the NT...{something to look into, or be thinking about}....

Nice meeting you, Theophilus.
I'll keep an eye out for your posts, :)
Last edited by RickC on Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:59 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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Re: Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

Post by RickC » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:27 pm

Hi Pmike & MikeW,

Thanks for your replies.
Quick note:
I'm not interested in discussing or debating {full or partial} preterism on this thread.
I'm not saying "no one can," just that I won't be. Anyways, Thanks, :)

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Re: Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

Post by mikew » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:31 pm

RickC wrote:Hi Pmike & MikeW,

Thanks for your replies.
I'm not interested in discussing or debating {full or partial} preterism on this thread.
I'm not saying "no one can," just that I won't be. Anyways, Thanks, :)
Rick,

I am not even addressing anything about preterism here. The words Jesus spoke in 11:25-26 didn't even seem to have anything to do with end-time events in my estimation.

If you wanted to talk about end times regarding resurrection you would have to go to John 5 instead. So you might want to reevaluate what I wrote without guessing that I was speaking about end-times.

Actually, I don't think that Martha's resurrection has anything to do with end time events either. But I will make a separate post on that idea when I get a chance.

So in my disagreeing that Jesus was speaking about end-time events in John 11:25-26 -- though the simple discussion of the born again experience may possibly be a fulfillment of the Isaiah's prophecies about the end-times -- I should be seen to purposely avoid the preterist discussion at this moment.

Now, after a moment of thought, I can see where Jesus' words there can and have been used to defend varieties of preterism but my explanation was wholly separate and against such interpretations.

If you see what Jesus was occurring in John 11:24-26, you should see that Jesus was not reinforcing Martha's concept of a Last Day resurrection but Jesus was describing another resurrection which is the reason Jesus had to speak of the various moments of life and death. Certainly He didn't need to go into so much detail to simply restate what Martha knew.

Now if Jesus was describing a new concept and a new sort of resurrection then Jesus was showing that there were two sorts of resurrection in His understanding. So, in another interruption of the effort to stay away from talking about preterism, Jesus made an argument against the glossing over of verses that result in the doctrine of full preterism.

Sorry for this long winded reply. It just is frustrating that I wasn't able to explain my position without it being construed as being preterism.

Rick, the problem regarding the Resurrection topic seems to be that Christians have not studied the topic comprehensively in scripture and are left with only impressions rather than knowledge.
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Re: Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

Post by psychohmike » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:14 pm

RickC wrote:Hi Pmike & MikeW,

Thanks for your replies.
Quick note:
I'm not interested in discussing or debating {full or partial} preterism on this thread.
I'm not saying "no one can," just that I won't be. Anyways, Thanks, :)
Yeah...I'm kind of with MikeW on this one. I didn't know that I was discussing or debating {full or partial} preterism.

MY studies on the resurrection may have led ME there...but that's my business.

As of late my studies on the resurrection in the Old Testament have made me wonder if there are any passages in the O.T. that are speaking of the second resurrection.

Pmike

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Re: Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

Post by mikew » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:29 pm

psychohmike wrote: Yeah...I'm kind of with MikeW on this one. I didn't know that I was discussing or debating {full or partial} preterism.

MY studies on the resurrection may have led ME there...but that's my business.

As of late my studies on the resurrection in the Old Testament have made me wonder if there are any passages in the O.T. that are speaking of the second resurrection.

Pmike
hmmm. With the awareness of your perspective, to a small degree, I saw this written in a full preterist position. And of course you mentioned the effect of these verses in forming or confirming your end-time perspective.

But with a second look, it also is reasonable to see the verses in your post as truly reflecting elements of Resurrection being confirmed as fulfilled in Paul's words.

I'm new here so I certainly can expect much misunderstanding of my knowledge,studies and posts. And I say "much" because my studies lead to logical but surprising concepts found in scripture.

So pmike, what is this talk of a second resurrection? Are you talking about something in Rev 20??
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Re: Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

Post by psychohmike » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:32 pm

mikew wrote:
psychohmike wrote: So pmike, what is this talk of a second resurrection? Are you talking about something in Rev 20??
Not necessarily...But since Revelation 20 does speak of a "first" resurrection, logic would lead one to conclude that there is more than one resurrection being spoken of.

And so what I am trying to do is figure out just how many resurrections there are.

Personally...I see two.

#1 Spoken of in the Old Testament as the restoration of Israel...Fulfilled "In Christ," through the work of the gospel.

#2 If I as a believer...Are, "In Christ?" Have I taken part in the, "First Resurrection???" And if so...Am I then subject to some future resurrection?

Pmike

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