Revelation 21 and 22

[dwilkins]

Duncan,

The standard answer to the question of what the eternal state is has to do with identifying the characteristics of the time after the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20. Since I think that this judgment represents something that started in 70AD, is ongoing today, and will continue as long as humans walk the earth I'm not sure if the term has the same meaning to me that it would to standard futurists. I think that the current paradigm of Christ ruling from heaven along with glorified saints, while Christians on earth work to spread the message of God on earth, is the only future for human history on earth that was revealed to us. We have no information from scripture on whether or not this will continue forever. From science and philosophy we deduce that it cannot literally continue for an infinity of time, but this is based on logic, not revelation by God. So, I don't know what the future holds. As far as I can tell, this is true of your system as well once the Gog and Magog war is concluded. If I remember correctly from your book (or possibly it was a blog post) you stipulated that you were unsure on whether or not history on earth would continue after this war. Assuming for a moment that it does, then we both think something similar, if not identical, about the perpetual state of human affairs on earth after this war. So, I'm not sure if the eternal state is something that can be defined unless it is the current description of the function of heaven and earth. We know that we've been promised that the current Christian age isn't something that is deprecated by another improved age. I suppose you could take away the earthly element of it and continue things in heaven for a literal infinity, but I don't see any scripture describing this. I'd say that if we have to say that earthly human history ends at some point then the eternal state is the continued function of heaven under the current configuration.

Doug

[robbyyoung]

IMHO, I believe the key to establishing "The Where" our eternal state resides is in the words of Jesus Himself.

John 18:36 - Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world (kosmos). If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, my kingdom is not of this realm."

Earth or material creation IS NOT nor will ever be the focus or reality of that which is spiritual.

[steve7150]

IMHO, I believe the key to establishing "The Where" our eternal state resides is in the words of Jesus Himself.

John 18:36 - Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world (kosmos). If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, my kingdom is not of this realm."

Earth or material creation IS NOT nor will ever be the focus or reality of that which is spiritual.

robbyyoung







Yes good point but Jesus did pray for God's will to be done on earth which sounds like earth will be also part of God's kingdom in the future.

[robbyyoung]

Hi Steve,

Our Lord Jesus gave us "the key" in how to apply and understand the words spoken by Him. If we stray from this highly important fact, our conclusions concerning spiritual truth will be wrong and void of the power of God. After Jesus gave a jaw-dropping lesson, in the synagogue, on the true understanding of the resurrection, many of his disciples in his entourage missed the power of Jesus' words and as a result, rejected His WORDS. Why? Because of their unbelief concerning the key to understanding:

"John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Brilliant and impossible not to comprehend. So the only thing left for the hearer is to simply be in a state of unbelief. Basically, telling Jesus that His words are not spirit but are to be taken with a wooden literalism that would cause Him to contradict Himself, The Father and The Holy Spirit!

For example, in John 6:63 Jesus said the words that I speak to you are spirit... "You", being His disciples. Well, He was speaking to his disciples when He gave the Lord Prayer, right? So are we going to make the same mistake those unbelieving disciples made by NOT hearing what the spirit is saying?

Matthew 6:10 is a prayer given to the disciples. The words were drafted to specifically prepare them for what was ahead. Mainly, the preaching of the kingdom is at hand in "THE LAND". This IS NOT talking about the entire earth, the translation is "land". What land? Consider the prayer carefully:

1. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done - Read Matthew 24:14 (When the kingdom has fully arrived, Judgement Day is His Will)
2. As in heaven, so in "the land" (not earth) - What land? Matthew 24:14 says, "all the world", WRONG, another erroneous translation. The greek word used is "oikoumenē" which means, "the inhabited Roman Empire Land".

You see the bible was NOT written to us, but it was written for us. The Roman Empire, Jerusalem, The Temple, The Elect of Israel, The enemies of God (Old Covenant Jews), etc... all came to a climax and spiritual conclusion in that 1st century generation. This was a lengthy explanation but there is much more spiritual truth involved.

If we continue to focus our attention outside the boundaries set by Jesus and the Apostles, we will fail to see how the physical, material world all around us, (Temporal), was used as an example to relay spiritual truth, (Eternal).

God Bless!

[Paidion]

John 18:36 - Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world (kosmos). If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, my kingdom is not of this realm."

Earth or material creation IS NOT nor will ever be the focus or reality of that which is spiritual.

I am sure this is NOT what Jesus meant. This sounds like gnosticism. Jesus made it clear that the Kingdom of God is present right here in this material world:

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” (Luke 17:20,21)

I know, some way that his means that the kingdom is within his disciples' hearts. But it cannot mean that. For Jesus was answering the Pharisees question as to when the Kingdom of God would come, and the Pharisees were not even disciples of Jesus. They could not have had the Kingdom of God in their hearts!

Jesus answered that the Kingdom of God was right there in their midst, and that was the case. A kingdom consists of a king and his subjects. Jesus was the King in His Kingdom, and His disciples were His subjects. So right while the Pharisees were asking Jesus when the Kingdom was coming, there it was right in the midst of them: Jesus the King and His subjects!

The word "kosmos" does not always mean "universe" or "the total of material reality". My Online Bible lexicon gives this wide range of meanings for the word:

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. #1Pe 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (#Ro 11:12 etc)
8b) of believers only

A common scriptural use of the word is the sense of "system". This "world system" or "world order" is the system organized by man. Man's system has kings, presidents, governments, and other earthly "authorities" which dominate various societies. Jesus said that His Kingdom is not of this "world system" in which we all live. He would not be a King in the world system who would establish His Kingdom through force of arms. That is what Jesus meant when He answered Pilate:

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” (John 18:36 ESV)

Jesus' Kingdom was IN the world system, but not OF the world system.

[dwilkins]

I am sure this is NOT what Jesus meant. This sounds like gnosticism.

Which gnostic, specifically?

Doug

[robbyyoung]

Paidion wrote:

I am sure this is NOT what Jesus meant. This sounds like gnosticism. Jesus made it clear that the Kingdom of God is present right here in this material world:

Hi Paidion,

Your astute knowledge of the greek word "kosmos" is appreciated and note worthy. My statement: "Earth or material creation IS NOT nor will ever be the focus or reality of that which is spiritual." Could have been developed further concerning the kingdom. We all know the kingdom was and is present. But all that we do and believe as Christians in the world should be focused on the things that are above, not worldly. This is the spiritual application I had in view.

God Bless