Universal love

[jriccitelli]

(Or, does God’s love prevent Him from killing people?)
In response to Steve’s note on the Hell thread concerning UR:

'It would seem to me that the doctrines of the universal love of God for His creatures, and the doctrine of God's sovereign and limitless power to save, would better qualify as "orthodox" doctrines—if we were to allow scripture to decide what we will call orthodox' (Steve, ‘Hell’ thread Dec.16)

jriccitelli wrote: ’Universal love of God for His creatures’? I think maybe a general love, but not an intimate or relationship love for creatures. This is clear in the fact that this ‘love’ has to synchronized with God destroying creatures and telling us He has the right to do so, I think that is the uniform teaching of scripture.(ibid.Sat Dec 25, pg.6)

Michelle wrote; Hi, jriccitelli… could you expound this? I'm really curious about what you believe about God's love. I am pretty sure that for you the topic of love is vast. Maybe it is for everyone, come to think of it. Would you at least contrast for me the idea of "general love" vs. "intimate or relationship love"? I could start a new thread in a different area of the board if you'd like...if you're interested in answering, that is.(ibid.pg.7)

Just the term ‘universal love’ sounds a bit impersonal and vague, to me. So yes I hold that there is general sense of love for all creation and man, but man specifically does something of 'his own' freewill that God hates and that is sin. Love in the Godly sense seems rather more intimate and relational. As love is between a child and parents, friends and family, and still further the deeper intensity insisted by scriptural depictions of love between a man and a woman.

I was going to see if a thread or discussion on meanings of love already existed here somewhere. But it would be interesting to examine the biblical verses concerning Gods love for man in a definite UR, CI context as in; does God’s love 'prevent' Him from killing people?
I don’t claim to have examined or exhausted every usage of the word love in scripture, but since it quickly becomes obvious that there are different degrees or depths to the words meaning, I can conclude that we must allow for the variation and degrees.
If all we knew about God was that He loved everyone, and this was demonstrated by His never physically punishing anyone, then we could conclude this was Gods way. But that is not the case. God does love people, but in the same context God does kill, destroy, tear apart, crush, and makes a promises to do so in the future if we do not repent, so we have to understand love to agree with His Justice and Holiness. You can’t get around this no matter how much exegesis you try to pour ‘into’ the verses. So we have to have a sensible agreement between these two extreme defining principles of Gods way and method.

That is, do we take the scriptures about wrath and let them modify the scriptures on God's universal love, or do we take God's love as fundamental, and understand the wrath passages in that light? (Steve pg.5 ‘Hell’ thread, Dec 20)

I wouldn’t say we ‘modify’ scriptures; we understand the wrath passages in the light of others. Yes, we let God define Himself in His word. But we don’t assume 'love as fundamental' means we move love so that it blocks His Judgments and His need to eliminate sin. Love does not prevent a judge from keeping Law and order. Nor does it limit Gods ability to do as He pleases, love, kill and destroy, since it is plain that God does all these things.

[Michelle]

Just the term ‘universal love’ sounds a bit impersonal and vague, to me. So yes I hold that there is general sense of love for all creation and man, but man specifically does something of 'his own' freewill that God hates and that is sin. Love in the Godly sense seems rather more intimate and relational. As love is between a child and parents, friends and family, and still further the deeper intensity insisted by scriptural depictions of love between a man and a woman.

"Universal love" sounds impersonal and vague to you, but it really means that God loves everyone. He loves everyone in the intimate, relational way like families and spouses. Do you believe that? Or, on the other hand, do you believe that God only loves, say, the elect — those who have sincerely repented?

You threw this sentence in the middle of that paragraph:

So yes I hold that there is general sense of love for all creation and man, but man specifically does something of 'his own' freewill that God hates and that is sin. (underlining is yours)

You know that God loved us sinners before we loved Him, right?

[Jhn 3:16 ESV] 16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

[Rom 5:8 ESV] 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

[1Jo 4:10 ESV] 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

I was going to see if a thread or discussion on meanings of love already existed here somewhere. But it would be interesting to examine the biblical verses concerning Gods love for man in a definite UR, CI context as in; does God’s love 'prevent' Him from killing people?

Hmm...I think if you could find a verse that clearly stated that, the discussion would be over, would it not?

I don’t claim to have examined or exhausted every usage of the word love in scripture, but since it quickly becomes obvious that there are different degrees or depths to the words meaning, I can conclude that we must allow for the variation and degrees.

This is what I want to know about. I'm really weary of the UR/CI/ET debate, so if you could find it in your heart to avoid all that, I'd appreciate it. Would you please show me how it quickly becomes obvious that there are different variations and degrees of God's love for mankind?

If all we knew about God was that He loved everyone, and this was demonstrated by His never physically punishing anyone, then we could conclude this was Gods way. But that is not the case.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...who claims that? (Maybe I've strayed back into Views-Of-Hell-Debate-Hell?)

God does love people, but in the same context God does kill, destroy, tear apart, crush, and makes a promises to do so in the future if we do not repent, so we have to understand love to agree with His Justice and Holiness. You can’t get around this no matter how much exegesis you try to pour ‘into’ the verses. So we have to have a sensible agreement between these two extreme defining principles of Gods way and method.

Could it possibly be that God destroys people who reject His love out of that very love, so that they don't spend eternity separated from Him? (Oh snap, I'm back in the debate, aren't I?)

That is, do we take the scriptures about wrath and let them modify the scriptures on God's universal love, or do we take God's love as fundamental, and understand the wrath passages in that light? (Steve pg.5 ‘Hell’ thread, Dec 20)

I wouldn’t say we ‘modify’ scriptures; we understand the wrath passages in the light of others. Yes, we let God define Himself in His word. But we don’t assume 'love as fundamental' means we move love so that it blocks His Judgments and His need to eliminate sin. Love does not prevent a judge from keeping Law and order. Nor does it limit Gods ability to do as He pleases, love, kill and destroy, since it is plain that God does all these things.

This is directed at Steve, yeah?