Do you agree that according to Revelation, God destroys that great city Mystery Babylon AFTER the revealing of the mark of the beast, the speaking image of the beast and the numbered beast?
If you agree to that being the biblical sequence ... "IF" God destroyed Mystery Babylon "tomorrow" would you agree that our prophecy experts did not recognize the image, mark and numbered one when those things did come to pass?
I speak as an historicist who does not attempt to tell us what is "going to happen" (futurism) but rather as stated by Sir Isaac Newton:
We are not to become prophets, but recognize the event after it has come to pass.
I have been exposed to three of the "isms".
I am a former futurist, my son-in-grace pastors a very conservative Reformed church in the USA and they are partial preterist in their understanding, and I have been historicist for many years now and believe this understanding is "more" correct than the other interpretive systems.
Don't tell Sir Isaac! but I believe God is going to literally destroy that great city Mystery Babylon (Vatican City) sooner than we had expected and I believe the image, mark and numbered one have come to pass.
Bottom line question ... if Mystery Babylon is destroyed in your time, do you agree that the image, mark and numbered one must have come to pass prior to that destructive event, even though you may not have recognized them?
DO YOU AGREE?
Re: DO YOU AGREE?
That's a pretty big IFBottom line question ... if Mystery Babylon is destroyed in your time, do you agree that the image, mark and numbered one must have come to pass prior to that destructive event, even though you may not have recognized them?
What IS "Mystery Bablylon"? What would have to occur in our day in order that we recognize that "Mystery Babylon" was destroyed?
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: DO YOU AGREE?
Paidion ... you ask ... what is Mystery Babylon?
If we believe the biblical description, it is definitely a "city".
It has been a "standard" Protestant understanding that it is Jerusalem if you are a full or partial preterist ... and it is the city of Rome if you are an historicist. Personally, I have narrowed it to Vatican City ... a city within a city.
Other "isms" are all over the place regarding it's location, but those are the two standard or historic understandings.
You ask "what would have to occur in our day in order that we recognize that "Mystery Babylon" was destroyed?"
It will be very obvious ... according to Revelation, when this event occurs, it will be an everlasting, ever burning witness to the world.
As an aside, Vatican City is built upon volcanic rock, so a re occurence of that would fit the biblical description.
Anyone care to take a shot at answering the question of the post?
If we believe the biblical description, it is definitely a "city".
It has been a "standard" Protestant understanding that it is Jerusalem if you are a full or partial preterist ... and it is the city of Rome if you are an historicist. Personally, I have narrowed it to Vatican City ... a city within a city.
Other "isms" are all over the place regarding it's location, but those are the two standard or historic understandings.
You ask "what would have to occur in our day in order that we recognize that "Mystery Babylon" was destroyed?"
It will be very obvious ... according to Revelation, when this event occurs, it will be an everlasting, ever burning witness to the world.
As an aside, Vatican City is built upon volcanic rock, so a re occurence of that would fit the biblical description.
Anyone care to take a shot at answering the question of the post?
Re: DO YOU AGREE?
Is my question too difficult to answer?
If God destroys that great city Mystery, Babylon now and the image, mark and number have not been revealed to most students of prophecy, does that mean that the prophecy experts did not recognize the image, mark and number when it came to pass?
If God destroys that great city Mystery, Babylon now and the image, mark and number have not been revealed to most students of prophecy, does that mean that the prophecy experts did not recognize the image, mark and number when it came to pass?
-
dizerner
Re: DO YOU AGREE?
[user account removed]
Last edited by dizerner on Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: DO YOU AGREE?
Yes it is. You have given two possibilities as to what "mystery Babylon" is. How many more possibilities are there?Is my question too difficult to answer?
Until we know for certain what it is, how can we know whether it has been destroyed or not?
If Jerusalem is destroyed, then has "mystery Babylon" been destroyed?
If Vatican City is destroyed, then has "mystery Babylon" been destroyed?
If _________(fill in the blank) is destroyed, then has "mystery Babylon" been destroyed?
Until we know for certain what "mystery Babylon" is, we can never know that it has been destroyed.
So how can we answer your question?
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: DO YOU AGREE?
"You (Canada) have given two possibilities as to what "Mystery Babylon is. How many more possibilities are there? Until we know for certain what it is, how can we know whether it has been destroyed or not?"
Are there others here ... that if Vatican City or Jerusalem City was completely destroyed tomorrow as per the biblical description in Rev 18, that they would be as unconvinced as Paidion as to either being that great city that has reigned over kings of the earth and merchandized in the souls of men? Rev 18:10-16
In that these two cities have been the two deduced choices by recognized Christian scholars over the centuries, I would be shocked that others here might be as unconvinced if it did come to pass tomorrow.
Are there others here ... that if Vatican City or Jerusalem City was completely destroyed tomorrow as per the biblical description in Rev 18, that they would be as unconvinced as Paidion as to either being that great city that has reigned over kings of the earth and merchandized in the souls of men? Rev 18:10-16
In that these two cities have been the two deduced choices by recognized Christian scholars over the centuries, I would be shocked that others here might be as unconvinced if it did come to pass tomorrow.
Re: DO YOU AGREE?
Why do you insist on Vatican City?
Let's examine the passage itself:
And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly. But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated. (Rev 17:3-9)
Actually verse18 tells who the woman is that John saw in the vision: "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."
The great city that reigned over the kings of the earth in John's day was Rome. And why not the city of Rome itself? After all, the passage speaks of the woman sitting on the seven mountains. We've all heard of the seven hills of Rome.
Let's examine the passage itself:
And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly. But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated. (Rev 17:3-9)
Actually verse18 tells who the woman is that John saw in the vision: "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."
The great city that reigned over the kings of the earth in John's day was Rome. And why not the city of Rome itself? After all, the passage speaks of the woman sitting on the seven mountains. We've all heard of the seven hills of Rome.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
-
dizerner
Re: DO YOU AGREE?
[user account removed]
Last edited by dizerner on Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: DO YOU AGREE?
dizerner said ... You really think there is absolutely no forgiveness for anyone repenting of Roman Catholicism?
I assume this is directed to Canada.
There is definitely forgiveness of sin for them ... for He says ... come out of her my people.
Surely you must know of former RC's that have come out of her and become born again.
I assume this is directed to Canada.
There is definitely forgiveness of sin for them ... for He says ... come out of her my people.
Surely you must know of former RC's that have come out of her and become born again.