What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

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steve7150
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by steve7150 » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:33 am

I believe Conditional Immortality is what might otherwise be referred to as annihilationism where only those who are saved survive in the end - others are punished and then destroyed. That being contrasted with the eternal torment view where those who are not saved are also immortal, but instead of inheriting the new earth are tormented forever.

I do not believe this deals with the timing of the salvation at all, only the result.







I may very well be wrong but i thought Conditional Immortality allows for salvation after death & can be different then annihilation or the same sometimes.

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Homer
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Homer » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:33 pm

Earlier Paidion wrote:
But does "αιωνιος" mean "eternal"? This adjective is derived from its nominal form "αιων" which means "age".
Therefore the adjective "αιωνιος" means "age-long".
This is an example of the "root word fallacy". There are many places, sixty-six in all, in the New Testament (KJV) where we find aionios translated everlasting, eternal, or forever. Twice it is translated "before the world began" and once "since the world began" The translators were not mistaken. The idea that only aidios means eternal is false.

Aidios only appears twice in the NT; Romans 1:20, translated "eternal" and in Jude 6 where it is translated "everlasting". The article on aidios in Kittle's Theological Dictionary, volume 1, page 168, states that aidios was sometimes used with aionios as a synonym. Also aidios was only used twice in the LXX as a philosophical term. Kittle's also says "aionios contains not merely the concept of unlimited time without beginning or end, but also of the eternity which transcends time.

The context of the use of aionios in the NT easily demonstrates the falsity of the idea that aionios means "age-long" and not everlasting, eternal, or forever. Consider the following:

2 Corinthians 4:18
New American Standard Bible 1995
18. while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionia).


2 Timothy 2:10
New American Standard Bible 1995
10.For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal(aioniou) glory.

1 Peter 5:10
New American Standard Bible 1995
10. After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal (aionion) glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

2 Peter 1:11
New American Standard Bible 1995
11. for in this way the entrance into the eternal (aionion) kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Hebrews 5:9
New American Standard Bible 1995
9. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal (aioniou) salvation,

Hebrews 9:12-15
New American Standard Bible 1995
12. and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal (aionion) redemption. 13. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14.how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (aionion) Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15. For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal (aioniou) inheritance.

Hebrews 13:20
New American Standard Bible 1995
20. Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal (aioniou) covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

Many more examples could be cited; the above examples should be more than enough.


Blaise Pascal:
People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:48 am

I will say nothing, Homer, except this: "You are wrong."
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Homer » Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:40 am

Hi Paidion,

My apology if the quote of Pascal offended you. I believe the quote is correct of all of us to one degree or another.

Be blessed, Homer

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:30 pm

No need to apologize, Homer. I wasn't offended.

The word "αιδιος" is the only Greek word in the New Testament that means "eternal".
The word "αιωνιος" is the adjectival form of the noun "αιων" (age) and it means "age-long" or "going from age to age" (for an indefinite number of ages, but not for an infinite number of them).

For some reason the producers of the major translations seem to like the word "eternal".
Here is an example of how far they will go:
(Eph 3:11 ESV) This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,...

Virtually all the major translations have "eternal purpose". But the phrase in Greek is "των αιωνων" (of the ages) which in no way means "eternal".
Paidion

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Darrell
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Darrell » Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:52 pm

Greetings Paidion,
Based on the words of our Lord:
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

How long do you expect to remain in the "state of eternal life"?

Blessings - d

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:24 pm

Darrell wrote:Based on the words of our Lord:
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

How long do you expect to remain in the "state of eternal life"?
Again, the words are mistranslated. The adjective is not "everlasting" or "eternal".
In both instances in this verse, the adjective is "αιωνιον" which means "age-long" or "going from age to age" (which may be a very long time, but is not necessarily "eternal". Here are 3 translations in which the translator recognizes this:

Mt 25:46 (Diaglot) And shall go away these into a cutting-off age-lasting; the and just ones into life age-lasting.
Mt 25:46 (Wey) "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
Mt 25:46 (YLT)(Young's Literal Translation) And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’
Paidion

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Darrell
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Darrell » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:42 pm

Paidion,
You wrote:"Again, the words are mistranslated. The adjective is not "everlasting" or "eternal".
In both instances in this verse, the adjective is "αιωνιον" which means "age-long" or "going from age to age" (which may be a very long time, but is not necessarily "eternal"

We've already cover this in previous posts on this thread.

"And these shall go away into everlasting (αιωνιον) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (αιωνιον)."

Again, based on our Lord's words how long do you expect to remain in the state of
ζωὴν αἰώνιον ?

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:38 pm

Darrell wrote:Again, based on our Lord's words how long do you expect to remain in the state of
ζωὴν αἰώνιον ?
Well... an age has an end:

Mt 13:49 (ESV) So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous.

Or do you think it should read: "So it will be at the end of eternity"?

If the noun ""αιων" means "age" and an age has an end, why should the adjectival form "αιωνιος" mean "eternal"?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Darrell
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Darrell » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:36 pm

Paidion,

Are you saying that Jesus taught that after the judgement the punishment of the wicked and the life of the righteous both eventually come to an end?

Perhaps you believe Matt 25:31-46 refers to something other than the final judgment?

Isn't the root word of αἰών "ἀεὶ" and doesn't it mean perpetual, always, forever, continually?

Live Blest - d

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