Paidion,
Actually it's Darrell and thank you for your kind words.
Yes, "ἀΐδιος": always existing, eternal, perpetual.. used by Jude to describe the chains which bind the angels that didn't keep their place/position… "εἰς" into, unto, to, for..the judgment day. Which could mean the "eternal chains" are temporary or until that day.
In any case, the meaning of ἀΐδιος is more in line with the western concept of eternal/forever/everlasting - if I understand correctly.
Blessings - d
What are your thoughts concerning universalism?
Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?
So sorry, Darell, for getting your name wrong!
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?
Hi Homer,
You wrote:
Why would anyone assume that Hitler, whether he repented before or after his death, would be in the same contidion as Polycarp?
I do not affirm that there is the opportunity for post-mortem repentance. That was not the issue you raised. You were addressing the views of evangelical universalists, and were saying that there would be injustice in God's forgiving such sinners. Yet, I presume (and hope) that you would have no trouble with God's forgiving such men if they were to repent prior to death. Given the universalists' position that people can and will repent after death, I was saying that there is no more injustice in their position than in yours. Am I missing something?
You wrote:
So Hitler, when confronted by Christ on Judgement day, falls to his knees in terror, repents, and winds up immediately in the same condition as Polycarp!
Why would anyone assume that Hitler, whether he repented before or after his death, would be in the same contidion as Polycarp?
Not that I know of. However, I simply posted in answer to your question about the justice of God forgiving a repentant Hitler or Stalin. Because of Christ, God can forgive anyone He wishes to forgive—and the Bible says that the latter category includes everyone.Is there a scripture somewhere that informs us of after death repentance and salvation?
I do not affirm that there is the opportunity for post-mortem repentance. That was not the issue you raised. You were addressing the views of evangelical universalists, and were saying that there would be injustice in God's forgiving such sinners. Yet, I presume (and hope) that you would have no trouble with God's forgiving such men if they were to repent prior to death. Given the universalists' position that people can and will repent after death, I was saying that there is no more injustice in their position than in yours. Am I missing something?
Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?
Hi Darrell,
You wrote:
This seems to be the implication of: "It makes a life of faith and following Christ unnecessary because in the end everyone gets to 'go to heaven.'" I cannot track with such thinking. Is any Christian of the opinion that there is no motive or purpose in a life of faith and following Christ other than to escape eternal torment? I would certainly see as much reason to live by faith and follow Christ even if I doubted the existence of any afterlife at all. Isn't there such a thing as living for the glory of God in obedience to Christ because of love for Him? If there were no heaven or hell to be concerned about, is not Jesus worthy of our obedience and love? Can you imagine any alternative course in life that would be more fulfilling, or equally meaningful? Perhaps I lack imagination, but I can't.
If there were to be an opportunity to decide after death, don't you think that those who had lived meaningless, destructive, sinful lives for their entire lifetimes would be smitten with regret, in the presence of God—knowing that their life had been wasted during the time that they could have lived in fellowship with God and been fruitful for His kingdom?
Besides, I think that most universalists believe there will be suffering in hell for those who have neglected so great salvation. If you died knowing that you were going to hell—even for a little while—would you not wish you had repented early enough to avoid it?
How is universalism different from purgatory? Well, for one thing, the Catholic idea of purgatory is only for people not bad enough to go to hell. Those wicked enough to deserve it go straight to hell without any time in purgatory—so it denies universal salvation. In terms of the character of God, the Catholic doctrine is no improvement over the traditional Protestant doctrine. According to universalism, God has more grace than the Catholic doctrine imagines—but then, Protestants would heartily affirm that.
If people are saved after death, I don't think it will be by any other means than they would have been saved had they repented before death. I did not come to faith or repentance through pain and torture, though God does use trials and unpleasant experiences, often, to awaken a sinner's conscience toward God. In the end, the only people who will be saved will have come to appreciate and love God for His great grace—this would have to be the case whether repentance were before or after physical death.
"Once Saved, Always Saved" is not the same as evangelical universalism. The latter affirms that all men will someday be reconciled to God through Christ, but that most persons miss out in this life on the experience of salvation—including deliverance from sin and demonic control, Christlikeness and usefulness to God, the liberation from a life of anxiety, the joy of a clear conscience, and the assurance of the future glory of God. Genuinely saved Christians may sometimes take all these familiar benefits for granted, and fail to remember how miserable (even suicidal) is the experience of those living their lives without them.
The "Once Saved, Always Saved" doctrine claims that unsaved people, lacking all these marks of true salvation, may nonetheless be regarded as saved simply because they may once have once said a "sinner's prayer." In fact, the OSAS people (almost like yourselves), seem to define-down "salvation" to the mere promise of heaven. They seem to begrudge other sinners' getting to heaven along with them, because they feel that this makes their own lives of faith, love and obedience to Christ to have been in vain—since they could have made it to heaven without ever having known Jesus in this life. This always makes me wonder if they see no value in knowing and loving Jesus for Himself, apart from anticipated trophies and rewards.
You wrote:
Both you and Homer have difficulty knowing how a universalist view would be any different from "Once Saved, Always Saved." I suspect that both of you are assuming that "saved" means little else than "escape from eternal torment."[Ultimately] universalism makes faith, death and judgement mere formalities. It makes a life of faith and following Christ unnecessary because in the end everyone gets to "go to heaven" (it just may take a little more time for some of us to get there)..not by faith but by torture - experiencing God's wrath and punishment. How is this different from purgatory?
This seems to be the implication of: "It makes a life of faith and following Christ unnecessary because in the end everyone gets to 'go to heaven.'" I cannot track with such thinking. Is any Christian of the opinion that there is no motive or purpose in a life of faith and following Christ other than to escape eternal torment? I would certainly see as much reason to live by faith and follow Christ even if I doubted the existence of any afterlife at all. Isn't there such a thing as living for the glory of God in obedience to Christ because of love for Him? If there were no heaven or hell to be concerned about, is not Jesus worthy of our obedience and love? Can you imagine any alternative course in life that would be more fulfilling, or equally meaningful? Perhaps I lack imagination, but I can't.
If there were to be an opportunity to decide after death, don't you think that those who had lived meaningless, destructive, sinful lives for their entire lifetimes would be smitten with regret, in the presence of God—knowing that their life had been wasted during the time that they could have lived in fellowship with God and been fruitful for His kingdom?
Besides, I think that most universalists believe there will be suffering in hell for those who have neglected so great salvation. If you died knowing that you were going to hell—even for a little while—would you not wish you had repented early enough to avoid it?
How is universalism different from purgatory? Well, for one thing, the Catholic idea of purgatory is only for people not bad enough to go to hell. Those wicked enough to deserve it go straight to hell without any time in purgatory—so it denies universal salvation. In terms of the character of God, the Catholic doctrine is no improvement over the traditional Protestant doctrine. According to universalism, God has more grace than the Catholic doctrine imagines—but then, Protestants would heartily affirm that.
If people are saved after death, I don't think it will be by any other means than they would have been saved had they repented before death. I did not come to faith or repentance through pain and torture, though God does use trials and unpleasant experiences, often, to awaken a sinner's conscience toward God. In the end, the only people who will be saved will have come to appreciate and love God for His great grace—this would have to be the case whether repentance were before or after physical death.
"Once Saved, Always Saved" is not the same as evangelical universalism. The latter affirms that all men will someday be reconciled to God through Christ, but that most persons miss out in this life on the experience of salvation—including deliverance from sin and demonic control, Christlikeness and usefulness to God, the liberation from a life of anxiety, the joy of a clear conscience, and the assurance of the future glory of God. Genuinely saved Christians may sometimes take all these familiar benefits for granted, and fail to remember how miserable (even suicidal) is the experience of those living their lives without them.
The "Once Saved, Always Saved" doctrine claims that unsaved people, lacking all these marks of true salvation, may nonetheless be regarded as saved simply because they may once have once said a "sinner's prayer." In fact, the OSAS people (almost like yourselves), seem to define-down "salvation" to the mere promise of heaven. They seem to begrudge other sinners' getting to heaven along with them, because they feel that this makes their own lives of faith, love and obedience to Christ to have been in vain—since they could have made it to heaven without ever having known Jesus in this life. This always makes me wonder if they see no value in knowing and loving Jesus for Himself, apart from anticipated trophies and rewards.
Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?
Hi Steve,
If you are missing something it is this:
After death repentance can never be the same as in this life. We are given a limited time here in this life, a time where we can accept the Lord as our savior based on faith, after this life comes the judgement. Repentance after death will be different, for then Hitler and Stalin will know by sight. "“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Think of the amazing faith and courage of Polycarp! Offered a concrete opportunity to renounce his Lord and escape a horrible death, no doubt with Satan whispering in his ear "save yourself", yet he was faithful until death, and I'm sure he received the promised reward. I do not see how Hitler and Stalin will have any room for doubt.
Of course I am not "the decider" in their case, or any other for that matter. I do not know what God will do with those who have never heard the Gospel, but I am confident that God is just.
Be blessed!
Just saw your post addressed to Darrell and felt that I needed to comment.
As Peter Testified:
Acts 10:42
New American Standard Bible 1995
42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
If you took away all the threats and warnings a huge part of the scriptures would be missing. I do not think Darrell and I are mistaken. The great majority of people, I believe, repent because of concern for the consequences. After conversion with discipling and the gift of the Spirit then comes the change of life. Some have mistakenly thought that a person must take time to learn to be a Christian and be a worthy candidate for baptism and inclusion in "the Church". This is just the reverse of what the Apostles said and did.
If you are missing something it is this:
After death repentance can never be the same as in this life. We are given a limited time here in this life, a time where we can accept the Lord as our savior based on faith, after this life comes the judgement. Repentance after death will be different, for then Hitler and Stalin will know by sight. "“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Think of the amazing faith and courage of Polycarp! Offered a concrete opportunity to renounce his Lord and escape a horrible death, no doubt with Satan whispering in his ear "save yourself", yet he was faithful until death, and I'm sure he received the promised reward. I do not see how Hitler and Stalin will have any room for doubt.
Of course I am not "the decider" in their case, or any other for that matter. I do not know what God will do with those who have never heard the Gospel, but I am confident that God is just.
Be blessed!
Just saw your post addressed to Darrell and felt that I needed to comment.
As Peter Testified:
Acts 10:42
New American Standard Bible 1995
42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
If you took away all the threats and warnings a huge part of the scriptures would be missing. I do not think Darrell and I are mistaken. The great majority of people, I believe, repent because of concern for the consequences. After conversion with discipling and the gift of the Spirit then comes the change of life. Some have mistakenly thought that a person must take time to learn to be a Christian and be a worthy candidate for baptism and inclusion in "the Church". This is just the reverse of what the Apostles said and did.
Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?
Steve,
You wrote: " I suspect that both of you are assuming that "saved" means little else than "escape from eternal torment."
Absolutely not! I view “saved” as having entered a relationship with GOD through faith in His Son Jesus. I can expound if you like but it is best summed up in Mark 12:28-31. I am very much opposed to transactional salvation and apologize for causing you to think otherwise.
I appreciate the time you took in responding to my post and I am conflicted because on one hand I want to reply in detail to all the points (and am more than willing to) but on the other, I think this is of greatest importance:
Steve, according to the doctrine of universalism is it necessary to come to faith in Jesus and follow Him while in this life, in the flesh, prior to death/judgment in order to enter the joy of the Lord? I say the answer is no, what do you say?
So, when I made the statement: [Ultimately] universalism makes faith, death and judgement mere formalities. It makes a life of faith and following Christ unnecessary because in the end everyone gets to "go to heaven (it just may take a little more time for some of us to get there)..….." although tactless, overly simplistic and offensive to some…. It is true.
You quoted:” This seems to be the implication of: "It makes a life of faith and following Christ unnecessary because in the end everyone gets to 'go to heaven.'"
Then wrote: I cannot track with such thinking. Is any Christian of the opinion that there is no motive or purpose in a life of faith and following Christ other than to escape eternal torment? I would certainly see as much reason to live by faith and follow Christ even if I doubted the existence of any afterlife at all. Isn't there such a thing as living for the glory of God in obedience to Christ because of love for Him? If there were no heaven or hell to be concerned about, is not Jesus worthy of our obedience and love? Can you imagine any alternative course in life that would be more fulfilling, or equally meaningful? Perhaps I lack imagination, but I can't.”
First, you lifted it from the [my] context of universalism and then gave many reasons why it was distasteful/unchristian but the thing is, I wasn’t speaking to motive, purpose, worthiness, reasons, obedience, love or some life that was potentially more fulfilling than one of serving Christ (Like you, I believe there is no life more fulfilling than one serving Christ).
I was only speaking to this point: Ultimately universalism makes a life of faith and following Christ unnecessary.
Edit after post: "in the end everyone gets to "go to heaven" I can see where this would lead one to conclude my focus was on reward...
You wrote: " I suspect that both of you are assuming that "saved" means little else than "escape from eternal torment."
Absolutely not! I view “saved” as having entered a relationship with GOD through faith in His Son Jesus. I can expound if you like but it is best summed up in Mark 12:28-31. I am very much opposed to transactional salvation and apologize for causing you to think otherwise.
I appreciate the time you took in responding to my post and I am conflicted because on one hand I want to reply in detail to all the points (and am more than willing to) but on the other, I think this is of greatest importance:
Steve, according to the doctrine of universalism is it necessary to come to faith in Jesus and follow Him while in this life, in the flesh, prior to death/judgment in order to enter the joy of the Lord? I say the answer is no, what do you say?
So, when I made the statement: [Ultimately] universalism makes faith, death and judgement mere formalities. It makes a life of faith and following Christ unnecessary because in the end everyone gets to "go to heaven (it just may take a little more time for some of us to get there)..….." although tactless, overly simplistic and offensive to some…. It is true.
You quoted:” This seems to be the implication of: "It makes a life of faith and following Christ unnecessary because in the end everyone gets to 'go to heaven.'"
Then wrote: I cannot track with such thinking. Is any Christian of the opinion that there is no motive or purpose in a life of faith and following Christ other than to escape eternal torment? I would certainly see as much reason to live by faith and follow Christ even if I doubted the existence of any afterlife at all. Isn't there such a thing as living for the glory of God in obedience to Christ because of love for Him? If there were no heaven or hell to be concerned about, is not Jesus worthy of our obedience and love? Can you imagine any alternative course in life that would be more fulfilling, or equally meaningful? Perhaps I lack imagination, but I can't.”
First, you lifted it from the [my] context of universalism and then gave many reasons why it was distasteful/unchristian but the thing is, I wasn’t speaking to motive, purpose, worthiness, reasons, obedience, love or some life that was potentially more fulfilling than one of serving Christ (Like you, I believe there is no life more fulfilling than one serving Christ).
I was only speaking to this point: Ultimately universalism makes a life of faith and following Christ unnecessary.
Edit after post: "in the end everyone gets to "go to heaven" I can see where this would lead one to conclude my focus was on reward...
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darinhouston
- Posts: 3114
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am
Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?
Is there a distinction between those who believe all will be saved and those who believe that there will be a second chance to respond to the reality of Christ in hell (with destruction on the one hand and new life on the other)? A name for the two groups?
Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?
Is there a distinction between those who believe all will be saved and those who believe that there will be a second chance to respond to the reality of Christ in hell (with destruction on the one hand and new life on the other)? A name for the two groups?
All saved is CU Christian Universalism or UR Universal Reconciliation & the other i believe is called Conditional Immortality. With many people it's not a second chance but a first real chance.
All saved is CU Christian Universalism or UR Universal Reconciliation & the other i believe is called Conditional Immortality. With many people it's not a second chance but a first real chance.
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darinhouston
- Posts: 3114
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am
Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?
I believe Conditional Immortality is what might otherwise be referred to as annihilationism where only those who are saved survive in the end - others are punished and then destroyed. That being contrasted with the eternal torment view where those who are not saved are also immortal, but instead of inheriting the new earth are tormented forever.steve7150 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:52 amIs there a distinction between those who believe all will be saved and those who believe that there will be a second chance to respond to the reality of Christ in hell (with destruction on the one hand and new life on the other)? A name for the two groups?
All saved is CU Christian Universalism or UR Universal Reconciliation & the other i believe is called Conditional Immortality. With many people it's not a second chance but a first real chance.
I do not believe this deals with the timing of the salvation at all, only the result.
I guess with Universalists, there are none who don't "make it" - it might just take longer? Some universalists believe there still has to be a choice, but that it is inevitable with enough time in hell. Others I believe don't think it matters and God will just save everyone and they would deny hell completely?
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darinhouston
- Posts: 3114
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am
Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?
I found this from Wikipedia. I guess for Universalists there is no "decision" that needs to be made at all - just a progressive sanctification for all (now or later). That seems expressly unbiblical and is different than believing someone might eventually see reality and follow Christ as their Lord in the afterlife.
Views on Hell
Christian Universalists disagree on whether or not Hell exists. However, they do agree that if it does, the punishment there is corrective and remedial, and does not last forever.[12]
Purgatorial Hell and Patristic Universalism
Purgatorial Universalism was the belief of some of the early church fathers, especially Greek-speaking ones such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Gregory of Nyssa. It asserts that the unsaved will undergo hell, but that hell is remedial (neither everlasting nor purely retributive) according to key scriptures and that after purification or conversion all will enter Heaven. Judaism teaches something similar – hell is an intense experience of cleansing, more an expression of kindness than a punishment.[13]
Fourth-century Christian theologian and Bishop Diodorus of Tarsus wrote: "For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetual, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them… the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be shown to them."[14]
Ilaria Ramelli, a scholar of the Early Patristic history writes, "In the minds of some, universal salvation is a heretical idea that was imported into Christianity from pagan philosophies by Origen" (c.185–253/4).[15] Ramelli argues that this view is mistaken and that Christian theologians were the first people to proclaim that all will be saved and that their reasons for doing so were rooted in their faith in Christ.
Views on Hell
Christian Universalists disagree on whether or not Hell exists. However, they do agree that if it does, the punishment there is corrective and remedial, and does not last forever.[12]
Purgatorial Hell and Patristic Universalism
Purgatorial Universalism was the belief of some of the early church fathers, especially Greek-speaking ones such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Gregory of Nyssa. It asserts that the unsaved will undergo hell, but that hell is remedial (neither everlasting nor purely retributive) according to key scriptures and that after purification or conversion all will enter Heaven. Judaism teaches something similar – hell is an intense experience of cleansing, more an expression of kindness than a punishment.[13]
Fourth-century Christian theologian and Bishop Diodorus of Tarsus wrote: "For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetual, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them… the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be shown to them."[14]
Ilaria Ramelli, a scholar of the Early Patristic history writes, "In the minds of some, universal salvation is a heretical idea that was imported into Christianity from pagan philosophies by Origen" (c.185–253/4).[15] Ramelli argues that this view is mistaken and that Christian theologians were the first people to proclaim that all will be saved and that their reasons for doing so were rooted in their faith in Christ.