What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

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steve7150
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by steve7150 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:51 pm

Greetings Paidion,
Based on the words of our Lord:
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

How long do you expect to remain in the "state of eternal life"?






This is the strongest verse for the eternal punishment doctrine because of the supposed parallelism but the righteous by definition already are imperishable so any reference to their length of life is irrelevant because they are already imperishable. The only relevant comment is regarding the unrighteous and that should stand on it's own.

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Homer
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Homer » Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:50 pm

Steve7150

You wrote:
This is the strongest verse for the eternal punishment doctrine because of the supposed parallelism but the righteous by definition already are imperishable so any reference to their length of life is irrelevant because they are already imperishable. The only relevant comment is regarding the unrighteous and that should stand on it's own.
Antithesis: a figure of speech in which an opposition or contrast of ideas is expressed by parallelism of words that are the opposites of, or strongly contrasted with, each other, such as “hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all sins”.

The statement of Jesus concerning the final judgement is clearly an antithesis. I am astonished that you would think His statement about the aionios life is irrelevant. Part of an antithetical statement can not stand alone, otherwise there is no contrast such as Jesus clearly made.

Darrell
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Darrell » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:39 am

Paidion,

τοῦ αἰωνίου Θεοῦ from Romans 16:26
αἰωνίου - αἰώνιος in the genitive/singular

Rom 16:26 KJV 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the (τοῦ) everlasting (αἰωνίου)
God (Θεοῦ), made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Additionally, does Christ's Priesthood come to an end?
Heb 5:6, 6:20, 7:17
αἰῶνα - αἰών in the accusitive/singular

I checked my BDG, Moulton's analytical and a few others lexicons that I have and all list eternal as a meaning for αἰών.

αἰώνιος - without beginning, without ending, without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting, forever BDG

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:00 am

Was the apostle Paul a universalist? He wrote:

...we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe (1 Tim 4:10).

If God is the Savior of all people, then He is the Savior of ALL people! So how can we teach that He is the Savior of only SOME people?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Darrell
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Darrell » Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:15 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:00 am
Was the apostle Paul a universalist? He wrote:

...we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe (1 Tim 4:10).

If God is the Savior of all people, then He is the Savior of ALL people! So how can we teach that He is the Savior of only SOME people?
Foremost, no verse is mutually exclusive or is written / to be understood in some “theological vacuum”.
(1Ti 4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1. (The) living God – there is no article in the Greek so (according to you) this must refer exclusively to Christ Jesus.
2. who is the Saviour of all men - (Act 4:12) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (Jesus) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (notice “under heaven” – that would be on earth not some future post death and judgment speculative state of existence.
3. specially of those that believe. – Chiefly, Particularly, above all. (Joh 8:24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
(why is Jesus so concerned that they should die in their sins if there is further opportunity for salvation after death and judgment?..... that would be “much ado about nothing” yes, I am intentionally being tactless and overly simplistic again.)

I wholeheartedly agree, Jesus is the Savior of all men (under heaven - on earth), particularly those who believe in Him because there is no other way to be saved (and I mean saved in the scriptural sense not some shallow / self-serving condition, should any doubt.)

On a side note, are you going to comment on Romans 16:26 and whether the Priesthood of Jesus ends?
To add to the list: Does the Covenant of Christ end?
(Heb 13:20) Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting (αιωνιου) covenant, (Homer brought this verse up in an earlier post and if you commented on it I missed it)

Does Salvation end? (Notice salvation is only promised to those who obey Him)
(Heb 5:9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal (αιωνιου) salvation unto all them that obey him;

In both instances and (Rom 16:26) Αιωνιου - αἰώνιος in the genitive/singular
The point being: if “αἰώνιος” does not mean eternal / everlasting (as generations of godly, respected scholars tell us it does) then you are (unavoidably) teaching that God is contained to an age, The Priesthood of Christ, His covenant and salvation all come to an end.

Live Blest - d

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:25 pm

Once again, “αἰώνιος” means "age-long" OR "going from age to age".
"Going from age to age" may or may not come to an end. It does NOT mean "eternal". As you know, the writers were aware of the Greek word for "eternal" (αἰδιος) and when they meant "eternal" they used it.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Darrell
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Darrell » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:10 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:25 pm
As you know, the writers were aware of the Greek word for "eternal" (αἰδιος) and when they meant "eternal" they used it.
Unless their definition of αἰώνιος and αἰών included eternal and everlasting.
ἀΐ́διος,αἰών, αἰώνιος all come from ἀεί - perpetual, always, forever, continually.
(I am aware of the error of root word fallacy)

2Pe 2:4 KJV For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud 1:6 KJV And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting (ἀϊδίοις) chains under darkness unto (εἰς) the judgment of the great day.

Depending on how one understands εἰς.. the everlasting (ἀϊδίοις) chains may only be until the day of judgement. If that is the case these everlasting chains are temporary which would mean ἀϊδίοις can mean something other than "everlasting / eternal".

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Homer
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Homer » Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:55 pm

Paidion,

Earlier I posted:

The article on aidios in Kittle's Theological Dictionary, volume 1, page 168, states that aidios was sometimes used with aionios as a synonym. Also aidios was only used twice in the LXX as a philosophical term. Kittle's also says "aionios contains not merely the concept of unlimited time without beginning or end, but also of the eternity which transcends time.

Can you prove Kittle wrong? You keep parroting this root word argument; what matters is what the writers of the New Testament meant when they used the word. The meaning of words can change in a very short time. What did the the word "gay" mean fifty year ago?

steve7150
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by steve7150 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:29 pm

Kittle's also says "aionios contains not merely the concept of unlimited time without beginning or end, but also of the eternity which transcends time.










Even Strong who believed in eternal torment described "aion" as "an age" and "aionios" as "age like" meaning pertaining to the age. It's an undefined amount of time so all of us will see it to some extent by our pre-suppositions.

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:36 pm

And once again, "αιωνιος" means "age-long" OR "going from age to age".
"Going from age to age" may or may not come to an end. The word itself does NOT mean "eternal".

Otherwise, why have two words for "eternal "αιωνιος" and "αιδιος" if they mean exactly the same?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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