This is a question solely for amillenialists and partial preterists. I'm not looking to debate, I just want to understand your framework better.
As a premillennialist, I belive that many prophecies from the Old Testament have not yet been fulfilled and will be fulfilled literally at or just before the return of Jesus Christ. However, as I understand it, amilenniali m views most of these prophecies as having been fulfilled at the first coming of Christ (e.g. Zecheriah 9:10), in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 (e.g Matthew 24) or as being fulfilled in the church age now (e.g. Isaiah 11). This leads me to ask:
Within the amillennnial/partial preterist frameworks, are there any OT prophecies that are yet to literally fulfilled? And more especially, is the second coming of Christ was prophesied at all in the Prophets? If so, where?
Looking forward to some insights,
Ely
Is the Second coming prophesied in the OT?
Is the Second coming prophesied in the OT?
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"Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus" Titus 2:13
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The amillennial approach to Old Testament prophecy is sometimes called the "realized" approach—meaning, by that expression, that the fulfillment has been realized in the church age. It is perhaps more accurate to use the term "inaugurated," rather than "realized," because many of the prophets speak of the entire church age, which has only begun, and is not yet completed.
When the Bible speaks of all nations worshiping the Messiah, or all kings bringing Him gifts, or other universal-sounding expressions like these, there are two possible ways to understand their fulfillment. One is to take them as hyperbole—speaking only of a situation such as currently prevails, in which individuals and kings from many nations have become followers of Christ. This is probably the view of most amillennialists.
It is also possible (alternatively) to see these prophetic expressions as speaking of a time, yet to be realized, in which literally all people and all rulers will surrender to and serve Christ.
Those who take this view can be either postmillennialists or premillennialists—the former being those who expect this development to be attained before Jesus returns, through the preaching of the gospel; and the latter being those who expect the same circumstances, except that they think it will require the actual second coming in order to accomplish this result.
I regard myself to be an "optimistic amillennialist," which some (e.g., Gary North) would regard to be a cowardly way of being
"postmillennial" without wearing that label. However, my amillennialism differs from postmillennialism in a significant way.
The postmillennialist anticipates the conversion of the world prior to Christ's second coming.
My optimism is not with reference to the conversion of the world, but rather, the maturing of the saints. I see evidence, in places like the parable of the wheat and the tares, and Revelation 20:7ff, that there will be a large number of unbelievers on earth at the time of the second coming—so much so, in fact, that the church may be driven underground by persecution. Nonetheless, the church, through its trials, will be purified and brought to maturity (Eph.4:13/ Mark 4:28-29/ 1 Pet.5:10/ 2 Cor.4:16-17/ Rom.8:18, etc).
To answer your question directly, then, most amillennialists would have no reason to apply any Old Testament passage to the second coming. Jesus said that Jerusalem would be destroyed (in AD 70) and the Jewish State dissolved "so that all things that are written may be fulfilled" (Luke 21:22). This gives the impression that nothing written prior to the time of Jesus' utterance anticipates a fulfillment in any specific event beyond AD 70.
However, insofar as many Old Testament prophecies predict the church age, which was inaugurated prior to AD 70, but continues for centuries beyond, the continuing effects predicted in certain prophecies prevail until the second coming of Christ.
As for that actual event (the second coming), that does not seem to be mentioned in any Old Testament passage. It was announced plainly for the first time only after Christ's departure (Acts 1:11). Thus neither the rabbis nor the disciples had any inkling, from the Old Testament scriptures, as to there being two separate comings of the Messiah—until it was revealed by the angels in the New Testament (some may consider Jesus' remarks in the upper room to be an exception to this statement, though we must acknowledge that comments like those in John 14:16-18 and verse 23 render the topic ambiguous, and this discourse did not seem to get the doctrine of the second coming clearly into the minds of the disciples).
I would not be opposed, in principle, to finding references to the second coming in some passage or other of the Old Testament. The question would be, which passage? I do not know of any Old Testament prophecy that specifically mentions the second coming, and the ones commonly suggested (e.g., Dan.7:13/ Hagg.2:7/ Zech.14:3-4/ Mal.3:1/ etc.) all seem to me to have an earlier fulfillment than that, as identified by the New Testament writers.
I suppose I would put the question to you: Do you see the second coming in any Old Testament passages? and if so, which ones?
When the Bible speaks of all nations worshiping the Messiah, or all kings bringing Him gifts, or other universal-sounding expressions like these, there are two possible ways to understand their fulfillment. One is to take them as hyperbole—speaking only of a situation such as currently prevails, in which individuals and kings from many nations have become followers of Christ. This is probably the view of most amillennialists.
It is also possible (alternatively) to see these prophetic expressions as speaking of a time, yet to be realized, in which literally all people and all rulers will surrender to and serve Christ.
Those who take this view can be either postmillennialists or premillennialists—the former being those who expect this development to be attained before Jesus returns, through the preaching of the gospel; and the latter being those who expect the same circumstances, except that they think it will require the actual second coming in order to accomplish this result.
I regard myself to be an "optimistic amillennialist," which some (e.g., Gary North) would regard to be a cowardly way of being
"postmillennial" without wearing that label. However, my amillennialism differs from postmillennialism in a significant way.
The postmillennialist anticipates the conversion of the world prior to Christ's second coming.
My optimism is not with reference to the conversion of the world, but rather, the maturing of the saints. I see evidence, in places like the parable of the wheat and the tares, and Revelation 20:7ff, that there will be a large number of unbelievers on earth at the time of the second coming—so much so, in fact, that the church may be driven underground by persecution. Nonetheless, the church, through its trials, will be purified and brought to maturity (Eph.4:13/ Mark 4:28-29/ 1 Pet.5:10/ 2 Cor.4:16-17/ Rom.8:18, etc).
To answer your question directly, then, most amillennialists would have no reason to apply any Old Testament passage to the second coming. Jesus said that Jerusalem would be destroyed (in AD 70) and the Jewish State dissolved "so that all things that are written may be fulfilled" (Luke 21:22). This gives the impression that nothing written prior to the time of Jesus' utterance anticipates a fulfillment in any specific event beyond AD 70.
However, insofar as many Old Testament prophecies predict the church age, which was inaugurated prior to AD 70, but continues for centuries beyond, the continuing effects predicted in certain prophecies prevail until the second coming of Christ.
As for that actual event (the second coming), that does not seem to be mentioned in any Old Testament passage. It was announced plainly for the first time only after Christ's departure (Acts 1:11). Thus neither the rabbis nor the disciples had any inkling, from the Old Testament scriptures, as to there being two separate comings of the Messiah—until it was revealed by the angels in the New Testament (some may consider Jesus' remarks in the upper room to be an exception to this statement, though we must acknowledge that comments like those in John 14:16-18 and verse 23 render the topic ambiguous, and this discourse did not seem to get the doctrine of the second coming clearly into the minds of the disciples).
I would not be opposed, in principle, to finding references to the second coming in some passage or other of the Old Testament. The question would be, which passage? I do not know of any Old Testament prophecy that specifically mentions the second coming, and the ones commonly suggested (e.g., Dan.7:13/ Hagg.2:7/ Zech.14:3-4/ Mal.3:1/ etc.) all seem to me to have an earlier fulfillment than that, as identified by the New Testament writers.
I suppose I would put the question to you: Do you see the second coming in any Old Testament passages? and if so, which ones?
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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Hi Ely,
I'm in agreement with what Steve has said here (gee, I hope that doesn't make me one of his minions).
The hermeneutic I follow in all of my Bible study (not just eschatology) is to first seek to understand what a scripture meant to it's original hearers. In my opinion, you cannot understand what a scripture means here and now unless you first understand what it meant there and then. This means taking into account factors such as language, culture, geography, literary genre, context (ie. how the passage fits into the whole thought/argument/letter/book), etc. Another extremely important question is how was a scripture understood in the context of covenant (Abrahamic, Mosaic, etc.), since a majority of Old Testament scripture has covenant as it's backdrop. All of this implies a certain amount of exegetical discipline and delayed gratification.
After getting a feel for what a text meant to it's original hearers, I'm next interested in see how it is applied to Christ. Since, afterall, He is the central figure in the history of mankind. Of particular interest, of course, is if and how Jesus applied a scripture to Himself or the writers of the New Testament applied a scripture to Him.
I'm not aware of any credible and reliable hermeneutic that allows one to apply Old Testament scriptures beyond Christ to far future events or people. Particularly since the New Testament writers didn't make such applications. What I do see Jesus and the New Testament writers saying is that the Old Testament scriptures (the Law, Prophets and Writings) point to and are fulfilled in His incarnation, ministry, death, resurrection, ascension and kingdom.
I'm in agreement with what Steve has said here (gee, I hope that doesn't make me one of his minions).
The hermeneutic I follow in all of my Bible study (not just eschatology) is to first seek to understand what a scripture meant to it's original hearers. In my opinion, you cannot understand what a scripture means here and now unless you first understand what it meant there and then. This means taking into account factors such as language, culture, geography, literary genre, context (ie. how the passage fits into the whole thought/argument/letter/book), etc. Another extremely important question is how was a scripture understood in the context of covenant (Abrahamic, Mosaic, etc.), since a majority of Old Testament scripture has covenant as it's backdrop. All of this implies a certain amount of exegetical discipline and delayed gratification.
After getting a feel for what a text meant to it's original hearers, I'm next interested in see how it is applied to Christ. Since, afterall, He is the central figure in the history of mankind. Of particular interest, of course, is if and how Jesus applied a scripture to Himself or the writers of the New Testament applied a scripture to Him.
I'm not aware of any credible and reliable hermeneutic that allows one to apply Old Testament scriptures beyond Christ to far future events or people. Particularly since the New Testament writers didn't make such applications. What I do see Jesus and the New Testament writers saying is that the Old Testament scriptures (the Law, Prophets and Writings) point to and are fulfilled in His incarnation, ministry, death, resurrection, ascension and kingdom.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Thanks fellas,
Can I ask a follow-up question please?
Using an 'amillennial hermeneutic', where does the NT refer to the second coming. And particularly, is the second coming spoken of in the the book of Revelation?
Come on Steve, you were a premillennialist once so you know which ones!I suppose I would put the question to you: Do you see the second coming in any Old Testament passages? and if so, which ones?
Can I ask a follow-up question please?
Using an 'amillennial hermeneutic', where does the NT refer to the second coming. And particularly, is the second coming spoken of in the the book of Revelation?
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"Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus" Titus 2:13
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I suppose I would put the question to you: Do you see the second coming in any Old Testament passages? and if so, which ones?
I think the nature of the Messiah's coming in the OT was conditional upon the jewish nation's obedience to God. If they were righteous the Messiah would bring peace to the world and rule from Jerusalem and if the people were unrighteous He would be lowly and ride into Jerusalem on a donkey. So since how he came was conditional there was nothing said about a second coming as far as i know.
I think the nature of the Messiah's coming in the OT was conditional upon the jewish nation's obedience to God. If they were righteous the Messiah would bring peace to the world and rule from Jerusalem and if the people were unrighteous He would be lowly and ride into Jerusalem on a donkey. So since how he came was conditional there was nothing said about a second coming as far as i know.
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I think Paul talks about the Church age being hidden in God, that no one knew, it is completely new and unique. It says in 1 cor, which none of the princes of this world knew.
1 Corinthians 2
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
I think scripture bears out the fact that being born of incorruptable seed with the power of Jesus Christ was hidden.
1 Corinthians 2
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
I think scripture bears out the fact that being born of incorruptable seed with the power of Jesus Christ was hidden.
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The gnostics of the first and second century used the same passage from I Corinthians 2 to justify the "hidden wisdom" and "knowledge" which they presumably possessed, and which was hidden to the wider church.
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Paidion
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
That passage doesn't say anything about the "Church age" being hidden.Jesusfollower wrote:I think Paul talks about the Church age being hidden in God, that no one knew, it is completely new and unique. It says in 1 cor, which none of the princes of this world knew.
1 Corinthians 2
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
I think scripture bears out the fact that being born of incorruptable seed with the power of Jesus Christ was hidden.
The mystery (secret) is that the Gentiles are heirs with Israel. The Gentiles being added in to a Jewish Church is what the "secret" was.
Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Second coming is found in the resurrection/glorification passages since it is the same event, the event that occurs on the "last day" along with judgement.Ely wrote: Can I ask a follow-up question please?
Using an 'amillennial hermeneutic', where does the NT refer to the second coming. And particularly, is the second coming spoken of in the the book of Revelation?
Second coming in the book of Revelation may be in a few places, depending on if you take it to be in chronological order or not. But I believe this is one of them:
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them
This parallels:
2Th 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
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Second coming in the book of Revelation may be in a few places, depending on if you take it to be in chronological order or not. But I believe this is one of them:
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them
This parallels:
2Th 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Bullseye Sean.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them
This parallels:
2Th 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Bullseye Sean.
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