So how does this tie together? OK here goes - I've listened to your Calvinism series and now am listening to your Spiritual Warfare series. And it seems to me that in the Calvinism one you take a different tack with regards to God creating evil than you do with the suggestion that God perhaps created Satan as he is.
In the Calvinism series you say that "Yes, God created the wicked man, but didn't make him to be wicked" but with the suggestion that Satan was created as such you say "Yes, God created Satan and is not embarrassed to say He made him wicked". Now unless I've misunderstood what you are getting at this seems to be in conflict. It seems that both can not be true in regards to God being the (direct) author of evil.
Am I missing something here?
Thank you and I do very much appreciate you ministry.
A question for Steve about Satan and Calvinism
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alaskazimm
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Re: A question for Steve about Satan and Calvinism
I don't know how old the spiritual warfare series may be, or if you have quoted me precisely from it. If so, I would not state things in exactly those terms today.
First, I do not take a stand on whether or not Satan was once good. All I can say is that the scriptures do not mention it, if he was. If he was made as he is today, then I would say that he was made to be a tester. If he was made good and went bad, it seems that God still allows him to exist to be a tester. In the former case, he could be called "wicked" or "evil" by contrast to God, in that his job is to seek to incite disobedience. This would not mean, hover, that God created human evil...only the potential for people to choose evil.
On the matter of Calvinism, I would say that God's providence is complex, not simple. In hardening Pharaoh's heart, God increased the sum total of wicked deeds that man would do—but only because the man was already on a wicked course which he, not God, had chosen for himself. I have no problem with God allowing a man, under judgment, to continue in his chosen course, depriving him of further opportunities to repent.
What I will not admit to finding in scripture anywhere is that God ordains a man to be evil, who had not previously chosen freely to be evil, and then punishes him for his evil.
First, I do not take a stand on whether or not Satan was once good. All I can say is that the scriptures do not mention it, if he was. If he was made as he is today, then I would say that he was made to be a tester. If he was made good and went bad, it seems that God still allows him to exist to be a tester. In the former case, he could be called "wicked" or "evil" by contrast to God, in that his job is to seek to incite disobedience. This would not mean, hover, that God created human evil...only the potential for people to choose evil.
On the matter of Calvinism, I would say that God's providence is complex, not simple. In hardening Pharaoh's heart, God increased the sum total of wicked deeds that man would do—but only because the man was already on a wicked course which he, not God, had chosen for himself. I have no problem with God allowing a man, under judgment, to continue in his chosen course, depriving him of further opportunities to repent.
What I will not admit to finding in scripture anywhere is that God ordains a man to be evil, who had not previously chosen freely to be evil, and then punishes him for his evil.
Re: A question for Steve about Satan and Calvinism
Why would God deprive a man of further opportunity to repent in this life (which I agree He might) and then provide limitless opportunity in the next?I have no problem with God allowing a man, under judgment, to continue in his chosen course, depriving him of further opportunities to repent.
Re: A question for Steve about Satan and Calvinism
If one held that this is something God does, the rationale might well be argued thus:Why would God deprive a man of further opportunity to repent in this life (which I agree He might) and then provide limitless opportunity in the next?
Ultimately, God will have all men saved eternally, though this does not prevent or preclude His being severe in his dealings in this life (as well as the next). The temporal judgments that God brings upon a Pharaoh (by hardening his heart) or a Herod (by striking him so that he is eaten by worms and dies) would represent severe earthly judgments—both well deserved, and useful, in God's purposes, to teach certain lessons to observers (e.g., Jude 7). These judgments, however, would not reflect God's lack of love or of intention that, through severer dealings still, in hell, these men might ultimately be recovered to His fold.
If I held to universalism, I would probably argue this way.
Re: A question for Steve about Satan and Calvinism
Thanks Steve; that's pretty much what I anticipated.
Re: A question for Steve about Satan and Calvinism
I have often seen this reference to the Lord's hardening of Pharaoh's heart portrayed as though God sort of reached in, wrapped His hand around Pharaoh's heart, and directly hardened it. But just as often it reads as though it was Pharaoh who was responsible for the hardening of his own heart. Most often it seems to be stated in a passive way... "Pharaoh's heart was hardened". When we read that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart," is there any reason that could not be read as, "Because of God, Pharaoh hardened his heart"?steve wrote:In hardening Pharaoh's heart, God increased the sum total of wicked deeds that man would do—but only because the man was already on a wicked course which he, not God, had chosen for himself...
Perhaps an analogy would clarify what I mean.
Suppose Joe spills a drink on me, and I get angry. One could say, "Joe made Perry mad." No one assumes, though, that I had no choice in getting angry, or that Joe somehow overwhelmed my ability to react otherwise. Everyone understands that "Joe made Perry mad," just means that, "as a result of Joe's actions, Perry got mad."
Similarly, "And the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart," could be interpreted to mean, "As a result of the Lord's actions, Pharaoh hardened his heart." In light of the other scriptures where Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart, and the several passages that state it in a passive way, I can't see a reason why not to read it this way.
Re: A question for Steve about Satan and Calvinism
Romans 9 would seem to work against your view as it kinda emphasizes an active hardening by God.(Romans 9:17-18 "For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."Perry wrote:I have often seen this reference to the Lord's hardening of Pharaoh's heart portrayed as though God sort of reached in, wrapped His hand around Pharaoh's heart, and directly hardened it. But just as often it reads as though it was Pharaoh who was responsible for the hardening of his own heart. Most often it seems to be stated in a passive way... "Pharaoh's heart was hardened". When we read that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart," is there any reason that could not be read as, "Because of God, Pharaoh hardened his heart"?steve wrote:In hardening Pharaoh's heart, God increased the sum total of wicked deeds that man would do—but only because the man was already on a wicked course which he, not God, had chosen for himself...
Perhaps an analogy would clarify what I mean.
Suppose Joe spills a drink on me, and I get angry. One could say, "Joe made Perry mad." No one assumes, though, that I had no choice in getting angry, or that Joe somehow overwhelmed my ability to react otherwise. Everyone understands that "Joe made Perry mad," just means that, "as a result of Joe's actions, Perry got mad."
Similarly, "And the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart," could be interpreted to mean, "As a result of the Lord's actions, Pharaoh hardened his heart." In light of the other scriptures where Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart, and the several passages that state it in a passive way, I can't see a reason why not to read it this way.
There are other scriptures that teach similar concepts, such as God "sending a strong delusion that people would believe a lie and be condemned"(2 Thess 2:11) and "Giving people up" to certain sins(Romans 1:24)
Re: A question for Steve about Satan and Calvinism
Hi Brody,
Indeed, even right there in Exodus 10:1 it says,
But does it?
Consider Ex 9:34 where the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart is called a sin.
If it's God who's hardening Pharaoh's heart, and if the hardening of Pharaoh's heart is a sin, then what does that imply?
Romans 9:17 is a quote of Exodus 9:16.
But the next verse, Exodus 9:17, asks Pharaoh, “As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?”
The question is not, “Why does God keep doing this to you Pharaoh?” The question is, “Why do you keep doing this Pharaoh?”
I think that there can be a confusion of cause, effect, and simple descriptive and predictive pronouncement here.
To spin on my early example, suppose I think I'm a really tough guy, and I say something like, “I'm going to go into this pub, and pour my drink on bruiser Bob and I'll make him angry, and I'll make his friends angry, and I'll whip them all, so that everyone can know what a tough guy I am.” In doing such a thing how much responsibility for the anger of bruiser Bob is on me, and how much of it is on him? Am I removing bruiser Bob's ability to respond differently?
That may seem a bit of stretch, but I think it's worth consideration, and that this reference to the Lord's hardening of Pharaoh's is not the slam dunk for a more Calvanistic interpretation that many people seem to think it is. Nor do I think, as Steve suggested, that it was an example of God being responsible for an increase in wicked deeds. Consider these references to the word “hardened” in the KJV.
brody196 wrote: Romans 9 would seem to work against your view as it kinda emphasizes an active hardening by God.(Romans 9:17-18 "For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."
There are other scriptures that teach similar concepts, such as God "sending a strong delusion that people would believe a lie and be condemned"(2 Thess 2:11) and "Giving people up" to certain sins(Romans 1:24)
Indeed, even right there in Exodus 10:1 it says,
This seems to imply that God is actively hardening there hearts.Exo 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs in the midst of them:
But does it?
Consider Ex 9:34 where the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart is called a sin.
... he [Pharaoh] sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
If it's God who's hardening Pharaoh's heart, and if the hardening of Pharaoh's heart is a sin, then what does that imply?
Romans 9:17 is a quote of Exodus 9:16.
But the next verse, Exodus 9:17, asks Pharaoh, “As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?”
The question is not, “Why does God keep doing this to you Pharaoh?” The question is, “Why do you keep doing this Pharaoh?”
I think that there can be a confusion of cause, effect, and simple descriptive and predictive pronouncement here.
To spin on my early example, suppose I think I'm a really tough guy, and I say something like, “I'm going to go into this pub, and pour my drink on bruiser Bob and I'll make him angry, and I'll make his friends angry, and I'll whip them all, so that everyone can know what a tough guy I am.” In doing such a thing how much responsibility for the anger of bruiser Bob is on me, and how much of it is on him? Am I removing bruiser Bob's ability to respond differently?
That may seem a bit of stretch, but I think it's worth consideration, and that this reference to the Lord's hardening of Pharaoh's is not the slam dunk for a more Calvanistic interpretation that many people seem to think it is. Nor do I think, as Steve suggested, that it was an example of God being responsible for an increase in wicked deeds. Consider these references to the word “hardened” in the KJV.
Here are some other “hardened” references.(Exo 7:13) And Pharaoh’s heart was hardened
(Exo 7:22) ...and Pharaoh’s heart was hardened
(Exo 8:15) … he [Pharoah] hardened his heart
(Exo 8:19) ...and Pharaoh’s heart was hardened
(Exo 8:32) And Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also
(Exo 9:12) And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh
(Exo 9:34) he [Pharaoh] sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
(Exo 9:35) And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened
(Exo 10:1) for I [the LORD] have hardened his [Pharaoh's] heart
(Exo 10:20) But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart
(Exo 10:27) But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart
(Exo 11:10) and the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart
(Exo 14:8) And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt
(1Sa 6:6) Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts?
(2Ki 17:14) Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their neck, like to the neck of their fathers, who believed not in the LORD their God.
(2Ch 36:13) but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD, the God of Israel.
(Neh 9:16) But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their neck
(Neh 9:17) and refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their neck
(Neh 9:29) but sinned against thy judgments... and hardened their neck, and would not hear.
(Job 9:4) who hath hardened himself against him, and prospered?
(Dan 5:20) But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened that he dealt proudly, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:
(Mar 6:52) for they understood not concerning the loaves, but their heart was hardened.
(Mar 8:17) And Jesus perceiving it saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? do ye not yet perceive, neither understand? have ye your heart hardened?
(Joh 12:40) He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them.
(Act 19:9) But when some were hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
(Rom 11:7) What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:
(2Co 3:14) but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth unlifted; which veil is done away in Christ.
(Heb 3:13) but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called Today; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin:
Re: A question for Steve about Satan and Calvinism
Perry wrote:Hi Brody,
brody196 wrote: Romans 9 would seem to work against your view as it kinda emphasizes an active hardening by God.(Romans 9:17-18 "For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."
There are other scriptures that teach similar concepts, such as God "sending a strong delusion that people would believe a lie and be condemned"(2 Thess 2:11) and "Giving people up" to certain sins(Romans 1:24)
Indeed, even right there in Exodus 10:1 it says,This seems to imply that God is actively hardening there hearts.Exo 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs in the midst of them:
But does it?
Consider Ex 9:34 where the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart is called a sin.
... he [Pharaoh] sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
If it's God who's hardening Pharaoh's heart, and if the hardening of Pharaoh's heart is a sin, then what does that imply?
Romans 9:17 is a quote of Exodus 9:16.
But the next verse, Exodus 9:17, asks Pharaoh, “As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?”
The question is not, “Why does God keep doing this to you Pharaoh?” The question is, “Why do you keep doing this Pharaoh?”
I think that there can be a confusion of cause, effect, and simple descriptive and predictive pronouncement here.
To spin on my early example, suppose I think I'm a really tough guy, and I say something like, “I'm going to go into this pub, and pour my drink on bruiser Bob and I'll make him angry, and I'll make his friends angry, and I'll whip them all, so that everyone can know what a tough guy I am.” In doing such a thing how much responsibility for the anger of bruiser Bob is on me, and how much of it is on him? Am I removing bruiser Bob's ability to respond differently?
That may seem a bit of stretch, but I think it's worth consideration, and that this reference to the Lord's hardening of Pharaoh's is not the slam dunk for a more Calvanistic interpretation that many people seem to think it is. Nor do I think, as Steve suggested, that it was an example of God being responsible for an increase in wicked deeds. Consider these references to the word “hardened” in the KJV.
Here are some other “hardened” references.(Exo 7:13) And Pharaoh’s heart was hardened
(Exo 7:22) ...and Pharaoh’s heart was hardened
(Exo 8:15) … he [Pharoah] hardened his heart
(Exo 8:19) ...and Pharaoh’s heart was hardened
(Exo 8:32) And Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also
(Exo 9:12) And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh
(Exo 9:34) he [Pharaoh] sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
(Exo 9:35) And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened
(Exo 10:1) for I [the LORD] have hardened his [Pharaoh's] heart
(Exo 10:20) But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart
(Exo 10:27) But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart
(Exo 11:10) and the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart
(Exo 14:8) And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt
(1Sa 6:6) Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts?
(2Ki 17:14) Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their neck, like to the neck of their fathers, who believed not in the LORD their God.
(2Ch 36:13) but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD, the God of Israel.
(Neh 9:16) But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their neck
(Neh 9:17) and refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their neck
(Neh 9:29) but sinned against thy judgments... and hardened their neck, and would not hear.
(Job 9:4) who hath hardened himself against him, and prospered?
(Dan 5:20) But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened that he dealt proudly, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:
(Mar 6:52) for they understood not concerning the loaves, but their heart was hardened.
(Mar 8:17) And Jesus perceiving it saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? do ye not yet perceive, neither understand? have ye your heart hardened?
(Joh 12:40) He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them.
(Act 19:9) But when some were hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
(Rom 11:7) What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:
(2Co 3:14) but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth unlifted; which veil is done away in Christ.
(Heb 3:13) but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called Today; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin:
Hi Perry,
The simple way of explaining both Pharaoh and God hardening his heart, is to recognize that God met Pharaoh in his hardened state and made it to where he could not repent. The hardening was without remedy so to speak and God used that for His purposes. I'm not sure why you have a problem with this, as God is said to control the hearts of kings "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turns it wherever he will"(Proverb 21:1)
I am not arguing for Calvinism, as I am not anywhere near that camp, but if it brings about God's purposes to harden an evil earthly ruler, then who are we to judge? Do you believe that it would somehow be disingenuous for God to actively harden Pharaohs heart?
Re: A question for Steve about Satan and Calvinism
How does God harden the heart? Directly or indirectly? The Gospel message can certainly harden the heart of one who is opposed to it and does not want to hear of it. I have seen it happen.