Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Angels & Demons
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Jason
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by Jason » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:19 pm

I'm slowly starting to take the position that is sometimes called the "Cosmic Warfare" view. We do have some data on Satan and the demons that help us out. For example, we know that some angels rebelled and will be judged at a given time. That means the angelic realm must have been created with free will, and free will entails the choice to do good or otherwise. We aren't told who or what tempted the angels who fell, but Satan could have been their temper also. If that's the case, are those angels eligable for salvation though Christ also?

We also know that Satan thought killing Jesus would be a good idea and that he didn't know it would ultimately lead to his demise. That tells me, at least, that Satan doesn't know the will of God so it would seem his mind is darkened against what's true. He could operate similar to a pathologial liar who believes their own fantasies and have no grasp on reality or truth. There are humans like that as a result of God's judgement (Romans 1) so it would seem plausible that Satan is under some kind of judgement as well. For what, I don't know.

We know that Satan has power also. He's called the god of this world and his minions (whomever they are) are called the powers rules of the air. When Satan tempted Jesus by offering him power, Jesus didn't dispute his claim. Rather, he resisted the temptation. So here we have a powerful, pathological, darkened creature who has followers both "in the air" and in the human realm. The traditional view makes a lot of sense to me and, correct me if I'm wrong, most of the pre-Christian Rabbis held that view as well. It's not scripture, but it's worth noting.

Steve asked why God would keep Satan around if he was not created to be a temper. The open theism camp has a good answer for that one but I only have one foot in that camp, with the other in mid-air. :) God doesn't create messes, but his free creatures do. He then cleans up the messes according to his wisdom and brings forth good out of them, like a loving parent. Therefore, we can see that "free choice" (whether angelic or human) is what causes the mess and God's wisdom uses less than ideal circumstances to further the work he wants to acomplish in the Earth. The system is messy but it places a premium on love, which is only possibly through free will. The same thing (choice) that makes the mess is the thing that makes it all worthwhile.

Anyhoo, that's just my opinion.

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darinhouston
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by darinhouston » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:39 pm

One related topic that has plagued me over the years is how we can be certain that we won't "fall" ourselves in eternity (and what would happen to us if we did). I am reassured by the fact that the tempter is destroyed and without a tempter, Adam & Eve wouldn't have fallen, but if Satan was "free" to fall or not without an external tempter, than what assurance do we have in eternity that we won't likewise suffer a similar fate?

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mattrose
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by mattrose » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:52 pm

darinhouston wrote:One related topic that has plagued me over the years is how we can be certain that we won't "fall" ourselves in eternity (and what would happen to us if we did). I am reassured by the fact that the tempter is destroyed and without a tempter, Adam & Eve wouldn't have fallen, but if Satan was "free" to fall or not without an external tempter, than what assurance do we have in eternity that we won't likewise suffer a similar fate?
I think that is a key question. And it played a roll in me starting this thread. If 'free will,' all by itself, can produce sin, then I'm not sure how another fall (and a never-ending sick cycle) would occur. If, however, sin is provoked the combination of fallen status and a tempter, then it makes sense that another fall would not take place since the status has been redeemed and the tempter is out of the picture.

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Paidion
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by Paidion » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:38 pm

darinhouston wrote:One related topic that has plagued me over the years is how we can be certain that we won't "fall" ourselves in eternity (and what would happen to us if we did). I am reassured by the fact that the tempter is destroyed and without a tempter, Adam & Eve wouldn't have fallen, but if Satan was "free" to fall or not without an external tempter, than what assurance do we have in eternity that we won't likewise suffer a similar fate?
During the American Revolution, most people in the U.S. were with the rebels, and opposed to Britain. But the United Empire Loyalists, stayed loyal to Britain. The Loyalists all had free will. They could have chosen to switch sides. But their decision to stay loyal to Britain was more or less cystallized by their initial decision.

At some point, a number of angels left their original status and deserted their original habitation:

Now I want to remind you, though you all once knew, that the Lord saving a people out of Egypt, the second time destroyed those not believing. Also He has kept the angels who did not keep their own beginning [status] and who deserted their own habitation, in everlasting bonds under darkness, for the judgment of the Great Day. Jude 5,6

But when those angels rebelled, the other angels must have made the decision to stay loyal. Thy still had free wills, but they willingly chose loyalty to the Lord. Though it is possible for them to rebel at some future time, it is unlikely, for their loyalty has been more or less crystalllized by their decision.

If Christ's disciples have submitted to Him and served Him all their lives, and were being conformed to the image of Christ, are they likely to rebel against Christ later? "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the Day of Christ." That doesn't mean you lose your free will. But it does mean that your character development will be such that it is highly unlikely you will ever rebel.

Even in this life, many of the Early Christians remained loyal to Christ, even though they were tortured, burned at stake, trampled by bulls, or beheaded. They were often given the opportunity to deny Christ and live, but few chose that course. Had they lost their free wills? Was it impossible for them to deny Christ? Not at all. But their loyalty to Him was "crystallized".

The proconsul urged Polycarp to "swear by the fortune of Caesar" and "reproach Christ" and he would free Polycarp. Polycarp's answer was, "Eighty-six years I served Him, and He never did me any injury; how then can I blaspheme my King and my Saviour?"

At one point, the proconsul threatened him, "I have wild beasts at hand; to these will I throw you unless you change your mind."

But Polycarp answered, "Call them then, for we are not accustomed to change our minds about what is good in order to adopt that which is evil; but it is good for me to be changed from what is evil to what is righteous."

So Polycarp was burned alive. Had he lost his free will? No, he retained his free will. Could he have changed his mind? Yes, of course. But his character was such, that he was resolved to suffer for his Master's sake.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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darinhouston
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by darinhouston » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:18 pm

Paidion wrote:But it does mean that your character development will be such that it is highly unlikely you will ever rebel.
I guess I'm not sure "highly unlikely" gives me a lot of comfort over an eternity (whether I'm considering myself or my loved ones).

joel
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by joel » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:07 pm

mattrose wrote:Allyn,

I theorize that the satan was created as a tester. And he performed that role well. But the more humanity failed the test, the more pride in his role began to form. He started to want them to fail. And desired to control them. God allows him to remain (as a corrupted tester) because testing is still filling a role. What was originally meant as a test to be passed (from God's perspective) ended up being a temptation to fail (from Satan's perspective). But as the satan tempts, God is still testing, and so the role is still worthwhile.

What do you think of this theory?
Mattrose,
I have trouble with your theory. I look at the nature of God revealed in the doctrine of the trinity to explain the existence of satan. God being 100% complete and 100% without need (e.g. a third party as a tester). If God is 100% complete and without need then why did He create? I believe that God is the source of all love and His holy love is the motivation for His desire to create. Being perfect in love He gave His creation the freedom of choice. God did not create evil, but He created the potential for evil. Consider a parent-child scenario. A parent having a child would have to realize that his/her child could potentially be a Ted Bundy like person, so, would the parent then choose not to have a child based on the possibility?

I very much like your energy for this discussion. Thanks

joel

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mattrose
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by mattrose » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:15 am

joel wrote: Mattrose,
I have trouble with your theory. I look at the nature of God revealed in the doctrine of the trinity to explain the existence of satan. God being 100% complete and 100% without need (e.g. a third party as a tester). If God is 100% complete and without need then why did He create? I believe that God is the source of all love and His holy love is the motivation for His desire to create. Being perfect in love He gave His creation the freedom of choice. God did not create evil, but He created the potential for evil. Consider a parent-child scenario. A parent having a child would have to realize that his/her child could potentially be a Ted Bundy like person, so, would the parent then choose not to have a child based on the possibility?

I very much like your energy for this discussion. Thanks

joel
Actually, I agree with everything you said, so I'm not sure what part of my theory you don't like :) I don't believe satan, as a testing-agent, was much different from any of the other 'angels' (who seem to have had specific roles). So I agree with your statement that God is 100% complete and without need. He created b/c He loves. I also agree that God did not create evil, but only the potential for it.

God bless,
matthew

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Suzana
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by Suzana » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:37 am

darinhouston wrote:One related topic that has plagued me over the years is how we can be certain that we won't "fall" ourselves in eternity (and what would happen to us if we did). I am reassured by the fact that the tempter is destroyed and without a tempter, Adam & Eve wouldn't have fallen, but if Satan was "free" to fall or not without an external tempter, than what assurance do we have in eternity that we won't likewise suffer a similar fate?
I think we can have assurance because of who God is, His faithfulness, and the promises contained in His word:


1 Corinthians 15:51-57 (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


I think there is a distinction here between incorruption* and immortality (beyond just the physical/material, - encompassing the moral/spiritual aspects).
*(Strong's) aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.

There's probably a lot more but these are some scriptures I think should allay any fears for our future in eternity:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Hebrews 10:14 (KJV) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Hebrews 10:23 (KJV) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Eph 1:13 in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Suzana
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Sean
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by Sean » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:51 am

Paidion wrote:
darinhouston wrote:One related topic that has plagued me over the years is how we can be certain that we won't "fall" ourselves in eternity (and what would happen to us if we did). I am reassured by the fact that the tempter is destroyed and without a tempter, Adam & Eve wouldn't have fallen, but if Satan was "free" to fall or not without an external tempter, than what assurance do we have in eternity that we won't likewise suffer a similar fate?
If Christ's disciples have submitted to Him and served Him all their lives, and were being conformed to the image of Christ, are they likely to rebel against Christ later? "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the Day of Christ." That doesn't mean you lose your free will. But it does mean that your character development will be such that it is highly unlikely you will ever rebel.
I agree with Paidion. I would add that once Christ appears we shall be like him. So we will no longer struggle against our sinful flesh, other sinful people, or Satan.

I makes no sense to me why someone would live in this age for Christ, which is difficult because you have to die to yourself and receive little if any benefit from doing so, and then later (after our bodies are glorified and we are no longer tempted) we would freely choose to fall. Do we think that life will really suck with God or what? Why, after receiving our reward would we turn around and forfeit it? That just doesn't make sense to me. We will still have free will but we will be doing what we are doing right now by our own choice, serving God. Only without the world, flesh and devil trying to stop us. With nothing against us, why would we choose other than what we have already chosen?
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

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mattrose
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by mattrose » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:32 pm

Sean's question (A good one) is very similar, of course, to my original question (With some variations in terms of the age in which we will live vs. the age in which satan originated). I think the case is a good one. Free will alone, in the presence of God, will not produce sin.

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