Hi Steve,
What is meant when people say someone has a spirit of lust or of greed, etc--does it refer to the person's attitudes or is it because a demon is influencing/controlling them?
In other words, how do we distinguish between what is demon influence/possession and what is simply fleshy/carnal attitudes?
Thanks.
Flesh vs Demons
-
_Benjamin Ho
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:16 am
- Location: Singapore
Flesh vs Demons
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Grace and peace,
Benjamin Ho
Benjamin Ho
Hi Ben,
In seeking to understand the biblical teaching about demons, there may be a danger of our taking the word “spirit” to mean “demon” in cases where that is not the intended meaning. That God has not given us “a spirit of fear” (2 Tim.1:7) might not mean “a demon of fear” (though I suppose it could mean that), but it may only mean a fearful inward (spiritual) disposition. Paul says that God has given natural Israel “a spirit of slumber” (Rom.11:8), which may or may not have anything to do with actual demonic spirits. In Hosea’s day, Israel was said to have succumbed to “a spirit of harlotry,” which might simply refer to a bent toward infidelity (Hos.5:4).
In all such cases, it may well be that what we think of as “demons” are far from the mind of the writer using the expressions, which may be nothing more than an idiom. On the other hand, it would be quite impossible to rule out the possibility that all such expressions speak of spiritual realities in which demons may be directly involved.
In some circles, it has become commonplace to speak of a person having “a spirit of lust” or “a spirit of greed.” Such terms are not found in the Bible, though some of the terms mentioned in the first paragraph, above, are not very different constructions than these expressions.
Because some Christians appear to go too far in identifying behavioral problems with demonization, there is a reaction commonly seen among evangelicals who say, “These problems are not demonic. They are simply manifestations of carnality, or ‘the works of the flesh’ (Gal.5:19-21).”
There is some validity in this observation, since the Bible seems to teach that fallen human nature by itself is quite capable of initiating much corruption.
It is also the case that demonization, in scripture, is not particularly associated with immoral behavior. While it may have been the case that demonized people were sexually immoral, murderous, greedy, etc., we don’t know this to have been the case, and these are not the kind of traits that are mentioned in describing them.
In the Gospels, we find that the principal effects of demonic bondage seem to be mental or physical affliction and spiritual torment. Many times occultic or mediumistic powers accompany the demonized state (hence, a medium was commonly referred to as “one who has a familiar spirit” (i.e., demon-possessed).
There is no scriptural data that would permit us to rule out the possibility of a kind of demonic bondage that keeps a person enslaved to some fleshly sin, like lust or greed. However, there is certainly no reason to suspect that our problems in these areas are primarily caused by demonic possession.
It probably matters little in most cases whether we identify a sinful habit with demonic attack or with the mere eruption of fleshly desires from the spring of a carnal nature. We must resist the devil (James 4:7) and we must mortify our fleshly desires as well (Rom.8:13). Our warfare against sin engages both agencies (the flesh and the devil), and we would be wisest to avoid inappropriate reductionism.
In seeking to understand the biblical teaching about demons, there may be a danger of our taking the word “spirit” to mean “demon” in cases where that is not the intended meaning. That God has not given us “a spirit of fear” (2 Tim.1:7) might not mean “a demon of fear” (though I suppose it could mean that), but it may only mean a fearful inward (spiritual) disposition. Paul says that God has given natural Israel “a spirit of slumber” (Rom.11:8), which may or may not have anything to do with actual demonic spirits. In Hosea’s day, Israel was said to have succumbed to “a spirit of harlotry,” which might simply refer to a bent toward infidelity (Hos.5:4).
In all such cases, it may well be that what we think of as “demons” are far from the mind of the writer using the expressions, which may be nothing more than an idiom. On the other hand, it would be quite impossible to rule out the possibility that all such expressions speak of spiritual realities in which demons may be directly involved.
In some circles, it has become commonplace to speak of a person having “a spirit of lust” or “a spirit of greed.” Such terms are not found in the Bible, though some of the terms mentioned in the first paragraph, above, are not very different constructions than these expressions.
Because some Christians appear to go too far in identifying behavioral problems with demonization, there is a reaction commonly seen among evangelicals who say, “These problems are not demonic. They are simply manifestations of carnality, or ‘the works of the flesh’ (Gal.5:19-21).”
There is some validity in this observation, since the Bible seems to teach that fallen human nature by itself is quite capable of initiating much corruption.
It is also the case that demonization, in scripture, is not particularly associated with immoral behavior. While it may have been the case that demonized people were sexually immoral, murderous, greedy, etc., we don’t know this to have been the case, and these are not the kind of traits that are mentioned in describing them.
In the Gospels, we find that the principal effects of demonic bondage seem to be mental or physical affliction and spiritual torment. Many times occultic or mediumistic powers accompany the demonized state (hence, a medium was commonly referred to as “one who has a familiar spirit” (i.e., demon-possessed).
There is no scriptural data that would permit us to rule out the possibility of a kind of demonic bondage that keeps a person enslaved to some fleshly sin, like lust or greed. However, there is certainly no reason to suspect that our problems in these areas are primarily caused by demonic possession.
It probably matters little in most cases whether we identify a sinful habit with demonic attack or with the mere eruption of fleshly desires from the spring of a carnal nature. We must resist the devil (James 4:7) and we must mortify our fleshly desires as well (Rom.8:13). Our warfare against sin engages both agencies (the flesh and the devil), and we would be wisest to avoid inappropriate reductionism.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
-
_IlovetheLord
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:07 pm
- Location: Elmont, New York
Hi Steve,
As you said, "In some circles, it has become commonplace to speak of a person having “a spirit of lust” or “a spirit of greed.”
What the problem is with this is that those circles basically say, "The Devil made me do it or a demon made be do it." All the blame is shifted and demons are given power they don't have. Get ride of you lust (people always think of this in only terms of the sexual) demon and you won't lust anymore. Get ride of the anger demon and you won't be angry anymore. What makes it different that assigning gods. god of thunder, god of water, etc?
The other thing is "generational curses." There is a demon on your family and that is why such and such acts this way or by Dad beat my mom was like this so that is why I beat my wife. It's a generational curse.
So he goes to a deliverance meeting and gets delivered from this generational curse.
They use: Exodus 20:5
You read the verse in isolation I can see why people would think this thing up. But that is not how one studies the Bible. You have to read in context and compare scripture with scripture.
Generational Curse, Really?
Exodus 20:5 (New Living Translation)
5 You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations.
This is were the so called "generational curse" is drawn from. First of all the Bible NEVER says anything about generation curses. That meaning is actually pured into the scripture.
Exodus 20:6
4 You shall not make yourself any graven image [to worship it] or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 You shall not bow down yourself to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, 6 But showing mercy and steadfast love to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Lets focus on verse five. The implication points to the generations repeating what the previous generation did.
Lets look at verse six:
But showing mercy and steadfast love to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments. Again look at the implication here. If you love God and keep his commandments and teach the next generation to do the same and they do it, iniquity will no be on them but mercy.
Lets see so other scriptures:
Numbers 14:18
18'The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.'
1 Kings 21:29
29"Do you see how Ahab has humbled himself before Me? Because he has humbled himself before Me, I will not bring the evil in his days, but I will
bring the evil upon his house in his son's days."
Correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe Ahab repented in the context of this chapter.
1 King 21:17-29
17 Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite: 18 "Go down to meet Ahab king of Israel, who rules in Samaria. He is now in Naboth's vineyard, where he has gone to take possession of it. 19 Say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: Have you not murdered a man and seized his property?' Then say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: In the place where dogs licked up Naboth's blood, dogs will lick up your blood—yes, yours!' " 20 Ahab said to Elijah, "So you have found me, my enemy!"
"I have found you," he answered, "because you have sold yourself to do evil in the eyes of the LORD. 21 'I am going to bring disaster on you. I will consume your descendants and cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel—slave or free. 22 I will make your house like that of Jeroboam son of Nebat and that of Baasha son of Ahijah, because you have provoked me to anger and have caused Israel to sin.' 23 "And also concerning Jezebel the LORD says: 'Dogs will devour Jezebel by the wall of Jezreel.'
24 "Dogs will eat those belonging to Ahab who die in the city, and the birds of the air will feed on those who die in the country." 25 (There was never a man like Ahab, who sold himself to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, urged on by Jezebel his wife. 26 He behaved in the vilest manner by going after idols, like the Amorites the LORD drove out before Israel.)
27 When Ahab heard these words, he tore his clothes, put on sackcloth and fasted. He lay in sackcloth and went around meekly. 28 Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite: 29 "Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his house in the days of his son."
The Son of Ahab was Ahaziah. Why was evil visited upon his house? See Verse 52.
1 Kings 22:51-52 (New Living Translation)
51 Ahaziah son of Ahab began to rule over Israel in the seventeenth year of King Jehoshaphat's reign in Judah. He reigned in Samaria two years. 52 But he did what was evil in the LORD's sight, following the example of his father and mother and the example of Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had led Israel into the sin of idolatry.
Each Man is Responsible for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18 (New Living Translation)
The Justice of a Righteous God
1 Then another message came to me from the LORD: 2 "Why do you quote this proverb in the land of Israel: `The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children's mouths pucker at the taste'? 3 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, you will not say this proverb anymore in Israel. 4 For all people are mine to judge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins will be the one who dies.
5 "Suppose a certain man is just and does what is lawful and right, 6 and he has not feasted in the mountains before Israel's idols or worshiped them. And suppose he does not commit adultery or have intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period. 7 Suppose he is a merciful creditor, not keeping the items given in pledge by poor debtors, and does not rob the poor but instead gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for people in need. 8 And suppose he grants loans without interest, stays away from injustice, is honest and fair when judging others, 9 and faithfully obeys my laws and regulations. Anyone who does these things is just and will surely live, says the Sovereign LORD.
10 "But suppose that man has a son who grows up to be a robber or murderer and refuses to do what is right. 11 And suppose that son does all the evil things his father would never do--worships idols on the mountains, commits adultery, 12 oppresses the poor and helpless, steals from debtors by refusing to let them redeem what they have given in pledge, worships idols and takes part in loathsome practices, 13 and lends money at interest. Should such a sinful person live? No! He must die and must take full blame.
14 "But suppose that sinful son, in turn, has a son who sees his father's wickedness but decides against that kind of life. 15 Suppose this son refuses to worship idols on the mountains, does not commit adultery, 16 and does not exploit the poor, but instead is fair to debtors and does not rob them. And suppose this son feeds the hungry, provides clothes for the needy, 17 helps the poor, does not lend money at interest, and obeys all my regulations and laws. Such a person will not die because of his father's sins; he will surely live. 18But the father will die for the many sins he committed--for being cruel and robbing close relatives, doing what was clearly wrong among his people.
19" `What?' you ask. `Doesn't the child pay for the parent's sins?' No! For if the child does what is right and keeps my laws, that child will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who dies. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own goodness, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. 21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my laws and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. 22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.
23 "Do you think, asks the Sovereign LORD, that I like to see wicked people die? Of course not! I only want them to turn from their wicked ways and live. 24 However, if righteous people turn to sinful ways and start acting like other sinners, should they be allowed to live? No, of course not! All their previous goodness will be forgotten, and they will die for their sins.
25 "Yet you say, `The Lord isn't being just!' Listen to me, O people of Israel. Am I the one who is unjust, or is it you? 26 When righteous people turn from being good and start doing sinful things, they will die for it. Yes, they will die because of their sinful deeds. 27And if wicked people turn away from their wickedness, obey the law, and do what is just and right, they will save their lives. 28 They will live, because after thinking it over, they decided to turn from their sins. Such people will not die. 29 And yet the people of Israel keep saying, `The Lord is unjust!' O people of Israel, it is you who are unjust, not I.
30 "Therefore, I will judge each of you, O people of Israel, according to your actions, says the Sovereign LORD. Turn from your sins! Don't let them destroy you! 31 Put all your rebellion behind you, and get for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O people of Israel? 32 I don't want you to die, says the Sovereign LORD. Turn back
and live!
It is true that the consequences of a previous generations sins will/can affect the next generation and so on.
As you said, "In some circles, it has become commonplace to speak of a person having “a spirit of lust” or “a spirit of greed.”
What the problem is with this is that those circles basically say, "The Devil made me do it or a demon made be do it." All the blame is shifted and demons are given power they don't have. Get ride of you lust (people always think of this in only terms of the sexual) demon and you won't lust anymore. Get ride of the anger demon and you won't be angry anymore. What makes it different that assigning gods. god of thunder, god of water, etc?
The other thing is "generational curses." There is a demon on your family and that is why such and such acts this way or by Dad beat my mom was like this so that is why I beat my wife. It's a generational curse.
So he goes to a deliverance meeting and gets delivered from this generational curse.
They use: Exodus 20:5
You read the verse in isolation I can see why people would think this thing up. But that is not how one studies the Bible. You have to read in context and compare scripture with scripture.
Generational Curse, Really?
Exodus 20:5 (New Living Translation)
5 You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations.
This is were the so called "generational curse" is drawn from. First of all the Bible NEVER says anything about generation curses. That meaning is actually pured into the scripture.
Exodus 20:6
4 You shall not make yourself any graven image [to worship it] or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 You shall not bow down yourself to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, 6 But showing mercy and steadfast love to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Lets focus on verse five. The implication points to the generations repeating what the previous generation did.
Lets look at verse six:
But showing mercy and steadfast love to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments. Again look at the implication here. If you love God and keep his commandments and teach the next generation to do the same and they do it, iniquity will no be on them but mercy.
Lets see so other scriptures:
Numbers 14:18
18'The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.'
1 Kings 21:29
29"Do you see how Ahab has humbled himself before Me? Because he has humbled himself before Me, I will not bring the evil in his days, but I will
bring the evil upon his house in his son's days."
Correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe Ahab repented in the context of this chapter.
1 King 21:17-29
17 Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite: 18 "Go down to meet Ahab king of Israel, who rules in Samaria. He is now in Naboth's vineyard, where he has gone to take possession of it. 19 Say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: Have you not murdered a man and seized his property?' Then say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: In the place where dogs licked up Naboth's blood, dogs will lick up your blood—yes, yours!' " 20 Ahab said to Elijah, "So you have found me, my enemy!"
"I have found you," he answered, "because you have sold yourself to do evil in the eyes of the LORD. 21 'I am going to bring disaster on you. I will consume your descendants and cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel—slave or free. 22 I will make your house like that of Jeroboam son of Nebat and that of Baasha son of Ahijah, because you have provoked me to anger and have caused Israel to sin.' 23 "And also concerning Jezebel the LORD says: 'Dogs will devour Jezebel by the wall of Jezreel.'
24 "Dogs will eat those belonging to Ahab who die in the city, and the birds of the air will feed on those who die in the country." 25 (There was never a man like Ahab, who sold himself to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, urged on by Jezebel his wife. 26 He behaved in the vilest manner by going after idols, like the Amorites the LORD drove out before Israel.)
27 When Ahab heard these words, he tore his clothes, put on sackcloth and fasted. He lay in sackcloth and went around meekly. 28 Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite: 29 "Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his house in the days of his son."
The Son of Ahab was Ahaziah. Why was evil visited upon his house? See Verse 52.
1 Kings 22:51-52 (New Living Translation)
51 Ahaziah son of Ahab began to rule over Israel in the seventeenth year of King Jehoshaphat's reign in Judah. He reigned in Samaria two years. 52 But he did what was evil in the LORD's sight, following the example of his father and mother and the example of Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had led Israel into the sin of idolatry.
Each Man is Responsible for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18 (New Living Translation)
The Justice of a Righteous God
1 Then another message came to me from the LORD: 2 "Why do you quote this proverb in the land of Israel: `The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children's mouths pucker at the taste'? 3 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, you will not say this proverb anymore in Israel. 4 For all people are mine to judge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins will be the one who dies.
5 "Suppose a certain man is just and does what is lawful and right, 6 and he has not feasted in the mountains before Israel's idols or worshiped them. And suppose he does not commit adultery or have intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period. 7 Suppose he is a merciful creditor, not keeping the items given in pledge by poor debtors, and does not rob the poor but instead gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for people in need. 8 And suppose he grants loans without interest, stays away from injustice, is honest and fair when judging others, 9 and faithfully obeys my laws and regulations. Anyone who does these things is just and will surely live, says the Sovereign LORD.
10 "But suppose that man has a son who grows up to be a robber or murderer and refuses to do what is right. 11 And suppose that son does all the evil things his father would never do--worships idols on the mountains, commits adultery, 12 oppresses the poor and helpless, steals from debtors by refusing to let them redeem what they have given in pledge, worships idols and takes part in loathsome practices, 13 and lends money at interest. Should such a sinful person live? No! He must die and must take full blame.
14 "But suppose that sinful son, in turn, has a son who sees his father's wickedness but decides against that kind of life. 15 Suppose this son refuses to worship idols on the mountains, does not commit adultery, 16 and does not exploit the poor, but instead is fair to debtors and does not rob them. And suppose this son feeds the hungry, provides clothes for the needy, 17 helps the poor, does not lend money at interest, and obeys all my regulations and laws. Such a person will not die because of his father's sins; he will surely live. 18But the father will die for the many sins he committed--for being cruel and robbing close relatives, doing what was clearly wrong among his people.
19" `What?' you ask. `Doesn't the child pay for the parent's sins?' No! For if the child does what is right and keeps my laws, that child will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who dies. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own goodness, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. 21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my laws and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. 22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.
23 "Do you think, asks the Sovereign LORD, that I like to see wicked people die? Of course not! I only want them to turn from their wicked ways and live. 24 However, if righteous people turn to sinful ways and start acting like other sinners, should they be allowed to live? No, of course not! All their previous goodness will be forgotten, and they will die for their sins.
25 "Yet you say, `The Lord isn't being just!' Listen to me, O people of Israel. Am I the one who is unjust, or is it you? 26 When righteous people turn from being good and start doing sinful things, they will die for it. Yes, they will die because of their sinful deeds. 27And if wicked people turn away from their wickedness, obey the law, and do what is just and right, they will save their lives. 28 They will live, because after thinking it over, they decided to turn from their sins. Such people will not die. 29 And yet the people of Israel keep saying, `The Lord is unjust!' O people of Israel, it is you who are unjust, not I.
30 "Therefore, I will judge each of you, O people of Israel, according to your actions, says the Sovereign LORD. Turn from your sins! Don't let them destroy you! 31 Put all your rebellion behind you, and get for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O people of Israel? 32 I don't want you to die, says the Sovereign LORD. Turn back
and live!
It is true that the consequences of a previous generations sins will/can affect the next generation and so on.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: