Using the Septuagint

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Paidion
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Re: Using the Septuagint

Post by Paidion » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:25 pm

Darin wrote:I've often used as a hypothetical example the notion that we should take NASB or Living Bible or some other "modern" translation of a particular controversial verse -- send it to a native speaker of another language who has little understanding of pious or spiritual matters, have them do a "secular translation," then send that foreign text to an english speaker who is proficient in that language and have them re-translate it back to English. Now, try to form a doctrine around that text in isolation at your peril !
I don't think that's quite analogous, Darin. The Septuagint having been translated into Greek from the ancient Hebrew without doubt gives the sense of that Hebrew better than the Masoretic text, of which we have no existing partial manuscripts until the ninth century. Even in the tenth century, the Masoretic text of the entire Old Testament was not complete.

The Scriptural texts from the Dead Sea Scrolls are closer to the Septuagint than they are to the current Masoretic text from which virtually all Old Testament translations are rendered.
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Priestly1
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Re: Using the Septuagint

Post by Priestly1 » Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:13 pm

I am a convinced LXX user. I use the "Orthodox Study Bible" by Thomas Nelson (NKJV) for my English Version needs....it is the Greek LXX OT Canon and Text & Bzantine Text NT united and translated for the first time!

No more does my Old Testament text oppose or disagree with my New Testament..............100% agreement. You folks need to purchse a copy ($49.00 hard bound/459.00 Leather bound). Finaly you can read the Old Testamet Text and Canon cited and relied upon by the authors of the New Testament! Don't rely on me....check it out for yourselves......the NKJV Old Testament revised according to the Greek Septuagint Tanakh! What a consept!




Rev. Ken

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Using the Septuagint

Post by kaufmannphillips » Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:35 pm

Paidion wrote:

The Septuagint having been translated into Greek from the ancient Hebrew without doubt gives the sense of that Hebrew better than the Masoretic text, of which we have no existing partial manuscripts until the ninth century. Even in the tenth century, the Masoretic text of the entire Old Testament was not complete.

The Scriptural texts from the Dead Sea Scrolls are closer to the Septuagint than they are to the current Masoretic text from which virtually all Old Testament translations are rendered.
(1) "Without doubt"? How do you judge the character of a translation "without doubt," without having its source manuscript to compare it to?

(2) Would you really assert that the Septuagint version of Job is more reliable than the Masoretic? And the Septuagint version of Daniel, which was even dropped by the early church in favor of Theodotion's translation (which more closely parallels the Masoretic)?

(3) Concerning the DSS:

"In addition to extra-biblical texts, the Dead Sea Scrolls, collected and copied from 200 B.C. to 68 A.D., include fragments from 202 biblical scrolls. These texts have been categorized by Emmanuel Tov, Editor-in-Chief of the Dead Sea Scrolls Publication Project, as follows: [from Tov, Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, pp.114-116)

1. Texts written in the special Qumran practice (that is, ones with the types of spelling, grammatical formation, and writing characteristics of the Qumran texts and no other group). These texts may in some cases have been copied from texts that resemble the MT. The manuscripts in this category constitute 20% of the Qumran biblical copies.

2. Proto-Masoretic texts, which resemble very closely the consonants of the later MT (Today’s MT includes numerous aides such as pronunciation guides, footnotes, endnotes, etc.). The manuscripts in this category constitute 35% of theQumran biblical copies.

3. Pre-Samaritan texts, which are similar to the later Samaritan Pentateuch. The manuscripts in this category constitute 5% of the Qumran biblical copies.

4. Texts close to the presumed Hebrew source for the Septuagint - about 5% of the biblical copies.

5. Nonaligned texts, which exhibit no consistent pattern of agreement or disagreement with other witnesses – the remaining 35%."


http://www.datingtheoldtestament.com/Texts.htm

(4) It is important to note that there is more to the evaluation of textual variants than simple dating of manuscripts. A twelfth-century manuscript may preserve a more authentic reading than a second-century manuscript, if its chain of transmission has been superior. So though dating of manuscripts is a factor in weighing their significance, different variants between manuscripts should be analyzed rationally in terms of content and character.

If one can provide a rational explanation for how or why one variant might have developed, then that should be taken into account. Does there appear to have been a spelling error in play, or an aural mistake? Is there a literary or historical reason why a scribe might have wanted to adjust the passage, out of better or worse motives? Does a scribe appear to be neat and meticulous, or are there recurring signs of shoddiness in their work? Such considerations can outweigh the relative antiquity of a manuscript.
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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Using the Septuagint

Post by kaufmannphillips » Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:52 pm

Priestly1 wrote:
No more does my Old Testament text oppose or disagree with my New Testament..............100% agreement.
(1) Considering agreement between the NT and a textual variant is putting the cart before the horse. First one should evaluate the different textual variants on their own merits. Then one may turn to see how the NT compares.

(2)There are places where the NT agrees with the Masoretic against the Septuagint; one may consider Matthew 2:15 & Hosea 11:1, and John 19:37 & Zechariah 12:10. How do these jibe in your OSB?
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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SteveF

Re: Using the Septuagint

Post by SteveF » Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:33 am

kaufmannphillips wrote: (1) The Herrell article is plainly anti-Semitic; you can google the author's name for further insight on the author's objectivity.
I just finished reading the article before reading the rest of this thread. I want to say that as I was reading the article I was bothered by the fact that the author seemed to have an axe to grind with Jewish people. It had a strong sense of being imbalanced. I, like kaufmannphillips, googled the author and was greatly disturbed to find out his view of Jewish people. His statements are exactly the kind of foolish and hateful comments that ultimately lead to the Holocaust. I'm so disturbed by the views of this author that I want to apologize to any Jewish person who may be reading this thread.

SteveF

Re: Using the Septuagint

Post by SteveF » Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:47 am

Darin wrote
I've often used as a hypothetical example the notion that we should take NASB or Living Bible or some other "modern" translation of a particular controversial verse -- send it to a native speaker of another language who has little understanding of pious or spiritual matters, have them do a "secular translation," then send that foreign text to an english speaker who is proficient in that language and have them re-translate it back to English. Now, try to form a doctrine around that text in isolation at your peril !
Darin, you may be interested to know that the Wycliffe Bible Translators organization uses a similar method when translating the bible into native languages. They will first translate the bible into the native language from Hebrew/Greek/English. They will then have it translated from the native language (by an independent) into english to see what they end up with. If they essentially get the same message back in english again then they know they did a decent job.

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Paidion
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Re: Using the Septuagint

Post by Paidion » Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:22 pm

SteveF wrote:I just finished reading the article before reading the rest of this thread. I want to say that as I was reading the article I was bothered by the fact that the author seemed to have an axe to grind with Jewish people. It had a strong sense of being imbalanced. I, like kaufmannphillips, googled the author and was greatly disturbed to find out his view of Jewish people. His statements are exactly the kind of foolish and hateful comments that ultimately lead to the Holocaust.


I googled Herrell's name as kaufmannphillips suggested, and found that He is indeed anti-Jewish. Indeed, I was utterly horrified with some of his anti-Jewish articles. I wasn't aware of this when I directed you to his article about the Septuagint vs the Masoretic text. I want you all to know that I am no supporter of racism of any kind in any form. Notwithstanding, I think some of Herrell's points in the article concerning the Septuagint vs the Masoretic text, may be valid.
I'm so disturbed by the views of this author that I want to apologize to any Jewish person who may be reading this thread.
Why do you want to apologize??? Did you have some part in Herrell's anti-Jewish activities or writings?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Using the Septuagint

Post by kaufmannphillips » Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:24 pm

Paidion wrote:

I googled Herrell's name as kaufmannphillips suggested, and found that He is indeed anti-Jewish. Indeed, I was utterly horrified with some of his anti-Jewish articles. I wasn't aware of this when I directed you to his article about the Septuagint vs the Masoretic text. I want you all to know that I am no supporter of racism of any kind in any form. Notwithstanding, I think some of Herrell's points in the article concerning the Septuagint vs the Masoretic text, may be valid.
The operative problem is not that Herrell is a cultural pariah. It is worthwhile to engage both ideas and sources with a certain sang-froid. However, when a source has a strong agenda - be it despicable or noble - one must be cautious about taking their arguments at face value. There is danger that they have handled the evidence in an unjustifiably tendentious manner.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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dean198
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Re: Using the Septuagint

Post by dean198 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:54 am

kaufmannphillips wrote:Sundry inklings:

(1) The Herrell article is plainly anti-Semitic; you can google the author's name for further insight on the author's objectivity.

My favorite part of the article is where it claims that Jews twisted the Hebrew text of Isaiah in order to combat Christianity. If so, it seems that these Jews were extraordinarily gifted, because they managed to twist the text in the Great Isaiah Scroll found at Qumran, which is dated a hundred years or more before the birth of Jesus. But those Jews are clever, clever.
I don't think it's as crazy as it sounds. I seem to remember hearing somewhere that Justin Martyr and the early Christians accused them of taking things out of the Bible that pointed to Christ.

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Using the Septuagint

Post by kaufmannphillips » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:36 am

dean198 wrote:
kaufmannphillips wrote:Sundry inklings:

(1) The Herrell article is plainly anti-Semitic; you can google the author's name for further insight on the author's objectivity.

My favorite part of the article is where it claims that Jews twisted the Hebrew text of Isaiah in order to combat Christianity. If so, it seems that these Jews were extraordinarily gifted, because they managed to twist the text in the Great Isaiah Scroll found at Qumran, which is dated a hundred years or more before the birth of Jesus. But those Jews are clever, clever.
dean 198 wrote:
I don't think it's as crazy as it sounds. I seem to remember hearing somewhere that Justin Martyr and the early Christians accused them of taking things out of the Bible that pointed to Christ.
Ummm - by means of time travel?


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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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