speaking in tongues

[Homer]

Steve,

You wrote:

Homer has made reference to using the word edify "in a negative sense," giving Luke 6:49 as an example of such a usage. But this verse does not actually give the word a negative sense. In Luke 6:49, the building of a house is not regarded as a negative thing, which is why the exact same activity is spoken of positively in the previous verse. Jesus does not criticize the activity of building houses (which He seems to treat as if it is something everyone must do). What He criticizes is the failure to first do adequate site preparation—something that is to be done before the building begins. There is no stigma implied in either man's building a house.

"Build" is a neutral word but what is built and the way it is built is not. And site preparation, especially the foundation, is part of the building process. My last paragraph shows what I meant:

I have never been able to understand how "praying" in a tongue, where the person does not know what he is saying, could build up a person. But I can, if as you seem to suggest, it is in a negative sense. This seems to be what occurs often as seen on TV where a person will appear to speak gibberish with no interpretation or even a pause. Seems like "flashing their credentials".

People can build themselves up, in a negative sense, in many ways in the assembly by what they say and do. I can see no way a person builds himself up, in a negative sense, while praying "in the closet". But I do not understand how a person would be built up while speaking words which to his mind convey no meaning. You have said in the past you have no idea what you are praying while praying in "tongues". And why someone with the "gift of tongues" would restrict it to their personal use when Paul says the gifts are for "the common good"?

But then Russel Spitler contends that tongues are like music in that they mean different things to different people. Perhaps the effect is similar to listening to instrumental music. Coul be that I am too rational.

Apart from church gatherings, we should do all that we can to edify (or build up) ourselves spiritually. Jude specifically commands us to build ourselves up—and even identifies "praying in the Holy Spirit" as the means of doing so.

You assume Jude 1:20 is a reference to "praying in tongues". But the prepostion en can be translated as "in" or "by". Jesus said David spoke en the Spirit when he wrote Psalm 110:1 (see Matthew 22:43-44). Paul peached en the Spirit to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 2:2-5). In neither case do we think they spoke in "tongues". I do not think we should be questioning the honesty of those trying to understand these difficult passages. We are all prone to making assumptions.

Does Paul pray privately "in tongues"? In 1 Cor. 14:14-15 is Paul saying he will pray with the Spirit and also pray with his mind separately or simultaneously? Perhaps Ephesians 6:18 would indicate the latter. There Paul associates alertness or watchfulness with prayer en the Spirit, and says that is the way we are always to pray. That does not seem like praying in a "tongue" on "autopilot", but with the mind fully engaged.

There are a number of times in the NT where people are said to speak, worship, pray en the Spirit with no connotation of it being in "tongues".

[Paidion]

Is it possible that Paul made a slip of the pen, and not the copyists?

Actually, TK, I think that it is indeed possible. Paul may have had a touch of dyslexia when he was writing that passage, and thus reversed the two words. This would be thought impossible only by those who believe that God preserved all the Biblical writers from error of any kind while they were writing books which became part of "the canon of Scripture".

I am acquainted with some forums where your question would surely "open up a can of worms", but I don't think it will happen on this forum, even among those who believe in the infallibility of all Scripture.

[TK]

Hello Paidion-

Paul, in fact, did make a slip of the pen (or in his dication) in I Cor. 1:

I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 for now no one can say they were baptized in my name. 16 (Oh yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas, but I don’t remember baptizing anyone else.)

If God was "dictating" to Paul exactly what to write in exactly a certain way, it would seem strange that this passage would be written this way.

TK

[steve]

People can build themselves up, in a negative sense, in many ways in the assembly by what they say and do.

Where does one find any evidence that Paul has something negative in mind when he speaks of edification in 1 Corinthians 14? Since he highly recommends anything that will edify the church, it is clear that edification (that is, "being edified") is a good thing in his mind. Thus, he could hardly think it a bad thing for you or for me to be "edified" (why would this be good for the church, and not good for the individuals in the church?). The suggestion that it is a bad thing to edify oneself is never hinted at in the New Testament, which is why I cited Jude 20, where Christians are actually exhorted to edify themselves.

And why someone with the "gift of tongues" would restrict it to their personal use when Paul says the gifts are for "the common good"?

No doubt preaching is intended for the edification of the whole church. But what can this mean, if not that the individuals in the church individually hear and benefit from the preaching? The edification of the church is the edification of its members. If individuals become more Christ-like, then the church becomes more Christ-like. The church is only built-up ("edified") as individuals are built-up.

In fact, the growth and edification of individuals in the church is said to be the means by which the church "edifies itself in love" (Ephesians 4:11-16). With reference to that last phrase, is it bad for a church, as well as for an individual, to "edify itself"? If not for a church, then why for an individual? Obviously, if I am spiritually weak, I cannot strengthen others. When one member is exalted, all rejoice (1 Cor.12:26).

When I study my Bible, or give to the needy, or pray in my closet, or do any other private act of devotion, the church is potentially edified. The same is true if I do any other self-edifying activity—one of which, says Paul, is praying in tongues (1 Cor.14:2).

How strange it would be if, by saying, "he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself," Paul was thus saying, "speaking in tongues is a bad thing," when he has already listed this very activity as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:10), and recommends that its use not be forbidden (only regulated—even as prophesying is to be regulated) in the church (1 Cor.14:27-33).

Why would Paul suggest that a would-be speaker in tongues, upon discovering that no interpreter is present in the meeting, should "speak to himself and to God"? Why not simply say, "Since the utterance can not be made publicly, just drop it" ? Paul seemed to believe a private speaking, even without an interpretation, would have some benefit (1 Cor.14:28).

You assume Jude 1:20 is a reference to "praying in tongues".

I have not made that assumption. I cited the verse to counter the suggestion that it is somehow a negative thing to edify oneself. What God's word commands us to do cannot be a wrong thing.

[verbatim]

Hi Verbatim--

Hello "TK"
You wrote;
I read your post again and I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say. I note that you are from the Phillipines (it is great to have you here!) so I suspect that there may be something of a language barrier. Of course, this is not your fault.

Thank you for your generous reply, Yes, I admit that I have language barrier because english was really my second language and I 'm only a high school undergraduate. I try very hard on how I can be able to be a member of this Forum because I was really attracted by the quality if disccusion I did not observed in other forum.

You seem to be saying that when someone prays in a "heavenly language" they are using the language that Paul heard in his vision, or in the other examples you gave. I have never considered this, but I suppose it is possible.

Yes, you're right that I used or mean to say that when someone prays in heavenly language as what was heard by Paul in vision,one must pray silently or not
audible as he say that the said words is unspeakable and not lawful to utter.

But what I am not clear about is whether you believe a believer SHOULD pray in tongues, or whether this is not supported by scripture.

To clarify the last phrase of your quote I would like to expound that "speaking or praying in tongue" is not literal because we all know that the tongue is really
use as an audible sense to speak; so, speaking in tongue can be considered as a hyperbole or a word not intended to tell what it means.e.g. John 17:25-26
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee and and these have known that thou hast sent me.
And I have declare unto themthy name, and will declare it:that the love wherewith thou hast loved me, maybe in them.(NKJV)

Jesus said that he declare or announce the name of the Father to his believer but nowhere in the Scripture show that Jesus declare or reveal the name of the Father? This comply to 1 Corinthians 14:15 What is then? I will pray with the spirit and will pray with the understandingalso: I will sing in the spirit and will sing in understanding also.

Thanks and God bless.
verbatim.

[Paidion]

Jesus said that he declare or announce the name of the Father to his believer but nowhere in the Scripture show that Jesus declare or reveal the name of the Father?

Has not Jesus declared God's name and made it known in this very prayer?

"Father, I desire that they also whom you gave me may be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory which you have given me; for you loved me before the foundation of the world. "O righteous Father! the world has not known you, but I have known you; and these have known that you sent me. And I have declared to them your name, and will declare it, that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them." John `7:24-26

According to the Online Bible Greek Lexicon, the Green noun "ονομα" (name) means more that a label. It states:

The name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one’s rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc.

The Jewish people of the day did not know God as "Father" — but Jesus always addressed Him in that way, and made Him known by the name "Father".
It was unnecessary for Jesus to make known God's name "Yahweh". The disciples and all the Jewish people already knew Him by that name.

[verbatim]

Hi Paidion,
According to you Jesus did not declare or announce the Father's name in mentioned prayer and it was only used to be a label which is mention in remembering
one's rank or authorithy.

But there were so many instances that Jesus teaches the name of Father but did not clearly say if what is the Father's name as e.g. Matt 6:9 when he teaches his apostle on how to pray; After this manner therefore pray ye; Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. John 17:5-6 And now O Father, glorify me thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.v.6)I have manifested thy name unto the man which thou gavest me out of the world:thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept the word.

You said also that it was unecessary for Jesus to make known God,s name"Yahweh" because the disciples and Jewish people already knew Him by that name.

I think this is presumptuos to consider with finality because the name "Yahweh" cannot be supported in NT because this name was result or taken up from corrupted language and not from the original Hebrew words.

On the feast of Shavout (Pentecost) the gift of tongues were spoken in many different dialects to those Jews from various regions gathered in Jerusalem for the Feast.What is interesting to note is that of the 16 to 17 dialects, Hebrew is not mentioned. Why not if this is the sacred language of God? It states they heard the praises of God, making the point that they all heard the praises in their own dialect. Meaning that God’s word and His name pronounced was not Yahweh to all. Otherwise how could they understand? It was Yahweh (the Holy Spirit) who gave the disciples the ability to speak in other languages that were not Hebrew. Are we to believe the languages that the Spirit gave utterance to were “pagan” languages that were not to be used!

This proves that Jewish people commonly spoke more than the Hebrew language at the time of Christ. In Acts 2 at the time of Pentecost: v.5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. V. 6 “because that every man heard them speak in his own language.” The people groups that spoke these languages were: Galilaeans, Parthians, Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamia, Judaea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt, parts of Libya about Cyrene and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians.” Interesting that Hebrew was not one of the languages. Why is it missing if it is supposed to be the sacred language.

I dont want to derail this thread but I think knowing the new name of Jesus Rev 2:17 & Rev 3:12 is related to speaking in tongue or heavenly language because these were unspeakable name that are not lawful to utter as it was commandeth "thou shalt not take the name of the LORD in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Deut 5:12

One could only know the true and Holy name of God when the Lord turn to the people a pure language, that they may call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. Zephaniah 3:9

Thak you and God bless.
verbatim

[verbatim]

After a month and this thread is nearing to be set aside for lack of participant who may want to share their insight about the speaking of tongue, I hereby decide to give some of my position.

I’m not saying that I am right but I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 1 Corinthians 10:15

There is a verse in Acts 19:15 (which stated this;) And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are ye? Who can boast now that you know Jesus? Jesus himself said in John 8:19 They said unto him, Where is thy Father? Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye have know me, ye should have know my Father also.
If we do not know who is Jesus and the Father and we also do not know if who is Paul, then the evil has surpassed us because the evil according to Acts 19:15 know Jesus and Paul and even the Father.
1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

I chose to mentioned this verses because it correlates with speaking in tongue Paul had experienced in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to vision and revelation of the Lord.

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body I cannot tell ; or whether ut of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven.

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

How he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
We can distinguish speaking in tongue which can be interpreted and there is also spiritual gift or speaking in tongue which cannot be uttered.
1 Corinthians 14:1-4 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaket not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifeith himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

In view of these I think that these correlate in words of Jesus in John 7:17-18 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
John 7:37-39 In the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified

(due to character limitation we shall stop here and continue later.)

Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

[wwalkeriv]

In all my years of attending church services, bible studies, Sunday school and other gatherings I have only heard tongues spoken once, and that was at a Church of God I attended when I was 12. I have never given this topic much thought, but I have always wondered why, of all the good Christian men and women I have been around in my life, I have only heard one instance of speaking in tongues.

If it's not too personal to ask, has anyone here spoken in tongues? Did you know you were doing it when you did it? The only exposure I had to it was frightening to me. I can still remember the exact phrase that was chanted over and over.

[verbatim]

wwalkeriv wrote:

If it's not too personal to ask, has anyone here spoken in tongues?

I admit that I spoke in tongues but, I’m sure that it’s differ from what you have heard and experienced in the church of God that you mentioned but ones similar to:

2Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Did you know you were doing it when you did it?

Yes, I’m fully aware when doing it because it was a way of praising the glory of the name of our Lord, but do not make mistakes that I’m speaking it aloud as it was said in 2 Cor 12:4 that the words is unspeakable and not lawful to utter. How do I do this?
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The only exposure I had to it was frightening to me. I can still remember the exact phrase that was chanted over and over.

I don’t know if what tongues you have heard but you may ask them if what is the meaning of the sounds that they utter because if you do not understand what they say they will be;

1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Speaking in tongue is a gift from the Holy Spirit which Jesus said in John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
When Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you," he was promising NOT to leave us empty, void, or alone, but to fill you and me with His spirit in the same way the Spirit filled the Holy Place in ancient times. And WHEN HE DOES, you and I will encounter and experience the glory of God like nothing else we have ever seen, heard or felt.
That is exactly the premise behind every man and every woman being filled with the Holy Ghost. Unless and until you have been filled with the Holy Spirit according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, you are an empty vessel – an empty tabernacle – an empty temple – void, empty, and alone. Without the Baptism of the Holy Ghost,

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) All Sriptures are KJV