Compiling of the New Testament

[Homer]

Verbatim,

Yes! it is a great instruction that we must continue, stand up and clean away our sins by calling the name of the LORD. (?)

In the act of baptism we call on the name of the Lord, as Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21. In Jesus' command in Matthew 28:19, baptism is clearly an action (immersion) that Christians perform on those who are made disciples, i.e. baptized into Christ. The person being immersed is making an appeal to God.

[jriccitelli]

It seems Jon has been over run with responses, and I am sorry about that Jon, that’s just the way it is here sometimes, at least your not being ignored! I had already wrote this before I saw all the other responses, so here you go:

Jon wrote; "Your logic does not follow. You say to not trust any man, that God can give the Truth to you personally. But you also say God tells us not to trust ourselves. If both are true then there is no path for you to find the Truth..."

I really don’t know how to explain that again, except with scripture;
But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:27)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me… and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him (John 14:6-17)

[verbatim]

Homer wrote:

In the act of baptism we call on the name of the Lord, as Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21. In Jesus' command in Matthew 28:19, baptism is clearly an action (immersion) that Christians perform on those who are made disciples, i.e. baptized into Christ. The person being immersed is making an appeal to God.

Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I had already explain my position in my earlier post # 109 yesterday at 11:26 p.m.regarding baptism, kindly I request you to re-read it again.

Regards.

[jriccitelli]

"…If God does lead us all to the Truth personally, then why can't we meet, talk about it, and have the same ideas about God and the Truth and salvation? Since we all have differences of opinion, yet there is only one Truth, then God cannot be giving all of us those idea, as God would not contradict himself"

Very good question, people do all have various opinions, there are two basic reasons why people do not believe the truth;
1. We do not 'know' the truth.
2. We do not 'want' to believe.
On the first point: We can 'think' we know what we believe when it may be simply that we do not know 'enough' about the subject, and we make an uninformed decision. This is understandably forgivable, and this is how most of us learn. 'But' if when we are confronted with the truth, we ignore it, or we reject it for ourselves, that is our own freewill.
God commands we know the basics, and He tests us on the minors - All for our benefit, His purpose, and our sanctification;
"But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life" (Romans 6:22) The Truth 'is' the Gospel, Gods Word, and Gods Holy Spirit, when we reject the witness of the Holy Spirit we are without excuse.

On the second point: We may vary our opinions because of our lack of faith, unwillingness, and unfortunately just a hardness from having trusting something else for so long. "You became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed" (Romans 6:17) (Why we must become like children to learn)

The most common division I see among Christians of 'all kinds' is just plain old unwillingness.

I do it myself, I 'know' I should give more to help others in need, but do I?
No, I give a lot of myself, but do I give my 'money' enough? I do not believe I am.
Do I trust God 'enough' to do full time service or ministry? No, I lack that great faith.
Do I believe I have great faith? Yes, because I live by Grace - I must live in grace -because I cannot attain the perfection I would desire, because of my flesh.
Jesus died to cover our sins 'and' this gap of Faith, He died so that I might live. This is what it means to 'live by grace'.
"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith" (Romans 1:17)
If you truly 'know' Him, you will 'want' to keep His commandments
"So now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification" (Romans 6:19)
(We do not keep the commandments to gain salvation, we keep the commandments because we have come to 'know' God. We do not make ourselves righteous, we submit to Him who saves us from 'our own will' so that we may 'want' to become righteous 'by' Him)

I have found that the most basic doctrines become the most troubling to those who have problems with the minor doctrines. If we do not submit to the basic teachings of scripture we will balk at the minor ones. If one doesn't believe; "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth" you will have trouble believing the rest. If you don’t believe God gave Adam a 'choice' then you will have problems with the rest. If you don't believe Adam sinned then you will have problems with the rest. Do you see why people do not all agree? Not all Catholics believe all of Gods Words, not all 'Christians' believe 'all' of Gods Word. Being a member of a church does not force you to believe 'everything', as much as some churches may try - it just doesn't happen to the human mind.

Do you see that not even a Pope, or a Canon, or having your Bible only does not 'make' a person 'believe', it is still each of us who decide what we are to believe and trust, God has 'allowed' it thus. Like I said: Unfortunately, at the end of the day each of us 'still' have 'our own personal canon' to which we hold onto and believe. Each verse is as important as the next, but do we trust what He says? Do we take 'each' verse to heart and do and trust what He has said?
Each of us have trouble with the command 'to go and sin no more', is it in our Canon, yes, do we do it?
We wish it was that easy, so we live by grace, and thus by grace we are saved, daily.

Like Peter said;
"As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God" (John 6:67-68)

[Paidion]

Yes! it is a great instruction that we must continue, stand up and clean away our sins by calling the name of the LORD. (?)

Huh? You mean Paul didn't call on the name of the Lord when Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus, and told him what to do? Or during all that intervening time until his baptism? You believe that, as a consequence, he hadn't had his sins washed away all that time? Why do you suppose he didn't call on the name of the Lord until his baptism?

Somehow it seems clear to me that Ananias instructed him to be baptized in order that his sins be washed away.

[verbatim]

Paidion wrote:

Huh? You mean Paul didn't call on the name of the Lord when Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus, and told him what to do? Or during all that intervening time until his baptism? You believe that, as a consequence, he hadn't had his sins washed away all that time? Why do you suppose he didn't call on the name of the Lord until his baptism?

Somehow it seems clear to me that Ananias instructed him to be baptized in order that his sins be washed away.

Read the passages telling about Paul journey in Damascus from Acts 22:6-16 if there is any assertion that Jesus has call the name of Jesus. Let us read;

Act 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
Act 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
Act 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
Act 22:11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
Act 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Act 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Paul then was blind and the Lord instructed Ananias to heal him and give instruction to baptize
By the voice he heard from his mouth in verse 14 where he was baptized wash away Paul sins by calling on his Jesus new name.

Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

Peace and Grace.

[Paidion]

I'm well aware of the contents of the passage. But what is YOUR understanding, Verbatim? Had he called on the name of the Lord prior to his baptism, or not? Was Paul a Christian prior to his baptism, or not?

[verbatim]

Well, This is my last post in this thread because I'm studying some subject and I want to focus my attention there. Regarding my answer for your question, prior to his baptism Scripture is clear in Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
So, by receiving the Word that he heard in Acts 22:14 Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.Paul was baptized and cleanse away his sins, Thank you.

[Jon]

Catholics do not agree concerning the teachings of their church, any more than the Protestants. For example, many Catholics believe their church is wrong concerning its edicts against the use of birth control.

Throughout the centuries, the church leaders did not agree in their interpretation of scripture and their understanding of the atonement, Christology, and eschatology.
I have already pointed out that the church in the first centuries taught that the atonement was essentially Christ's victory over Satan and sin. The Orthodox branch continues in that view to this day, whereas the Roman Catholic branch interprets the atonement in the sense of penal substitution.

The early church taught that the Father begat His Son as a single act, before all ages. This is stated in the original Nicene creed. But when it was realized that this historic Christian belief was inconsistent with the Trinitarianism which began to be widely propagated in the fourth century, the church then changed the Nicene creed to read "eternally begotten."

If you believe the decisions of the Catholic Church are infallible, then you would have to believe that the earlier position was incorrect, and the later one was correct. But then, what will you do if the Catholic Church reverses its position in the future? At least one of the two positions is incorrect. In any case, the Catholic Church had to be WRONG, either when they affirmed the first position, or when they affirmed the second. There are dozens of other doctrines which have been changed also. Of course, you might take the position that God's revelation to the Church has continued to increase gradually over the years so that former errors have been corrected. But this seems to be a dangerous position to take. For this implies that whatever decisions the Church councils make, they are infallible, for God "preserves His 'One True Church' from error." In practice this can mean that Church councils can make any decision they wish, expecting the Church as a whole to accept these decisions without question. In the past there have been popes whom the Catholic Church has realized were not men of God at all, but scoundrels, and whom they have labelled as "anti-popes". Clearly God did not preserve the Catholic Church from being ruled by such evil popes.

While it may be true that lay Catholics do not believe all the same things, that is far different than saying the Church organization teaches different things. They do not. What you're describing is poor teaching of the flock. What I was describing was Protestant groups teaching different Truths. It's not the same.

I tried to look up your comments about the Nicene creed and I couldn't find exactly how you described it. Do you have dates of the original Creed, when it was promulgated and how, and when it was changed and how? It may seem like they contradicted themselves when in fact they did not. If you have more detail I'd be interested in discussing it.

As far as "dozens of other doctrines" you would have to be more specific. I could easily say that the Devil has helped millions of people interpret the Bible incorrectly to their own potential damnation and we would have as much useful information to discuss as you have given me with "dozens of doctrines".

When I use the word "dangerous", I mean it is dangerous to one's salvation to believe things which I believe contradict Jesus' path to salvation. How do you use it here? What is dangerous about accepting the direction of the Church? Everyone is still saved anyway, right?

Jon

[jriccitelli]

You're right Jon the RCC church has been taking a much more liberal stance on those outside the RCC being saved, or rather starting to embrace Origen more so, as witnessed that many early church fathers may have taught something closer to Universalism (Pantaenus, Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius, Didymus the Blind, Macarius of Egypt, Gregory Thaumaturgus, Ambrose, Ephraim, John Chrysostum, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzus, Jerome of Bethlehem, Evagrius Ponticus, Titus of Bastra, Asterius of Amasea, Cyril, Methodius of Tyre, Pamphilius Eusibius, Hillary of Poitiers…). Maybe Universalists and Catholics have a bit in common! It may not be a danger to 'not believe' anything after all, or maybe it is, just to avoid Purgatory or the flames of the refiners fire, or maybe it is just a political move on the part of the RCC, I wonder, but I hate to change the topic again.