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Earliest text question

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:22 pm
by marty
Can anyone point me to a place to find what the earliest textual dates we have for various books in the NT? I'm primarily interested in 1 Corinthians textual dates for now. I believe we have no complete early texts for this book but various partial texts put together?

Re: Earliest text question

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:38 pm
by morbo3000

Re: Earliest text question

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:03 pm
by marty
Thank you. That was a good source.

Re: Earliest text question

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:59 pm
by Paidion
Marty, I have a book called The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts edited by Philip W. Comfort and David P. Barrett.
This book contains transcripts of ALL extant NT manuscripts prior to 300 A.D.

You indicated you are presently interested in 1 Corinthians. Papyrus 66 which has been dated about 150 A.D, contains a lot of 1 Corinthians. The following parts are found in the extant manuscript:

1:1-31, 2:1-16, 3:1-23, 4:1-21, 5:1-13, 6:1-20, 7:1-40, 7:1-40, 8:1-13, 9:1-2;4-27, 10:1-33,11:1-34,12:1-31;13:1-13,14:1-14;16-40,15:1-15;17-58,16"1-22

If your interest lies in any of the above passages from 1 Corinthians, just state which ones, and I can tell you whether they are different from later Greek texts. I have studied Greek for a few years, and could probably help.

Re: Earliest text question

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:44 am
by morbo3000
Dude! You've just made Amazon some money from me!

- Jeff.

Re: Earliest text question

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:34 pm
by marty
Thanks Paidion. I'm looking at 1 corinthians 14: 34-35, and am doing an article on Womens roles in the Church. I thought these verses would be a slam dunk but I'm shocked at the huge volume of conservative scholarly work done on these verses. Bruce Winters work on the Roman New Woman is especially enlightening. Looks like I may be changing my mind on another long held view LOL.

Re: Earliest text question

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:14 pm
by Paidion
marty wrote:Thanks Paidion. I'm looking at 1 corinthians 14: 34-35, and am doing an article on Womens roles in the Church. I thought these verses would be a slam dunk but I'm shocked at the huge volume of conservative scholarly work done on these verses. Bruce Winters work on the Roman New Woman is especially enlightening. Looks like I may be changing my mind on another long held view LOL.
Okay, I don't know what your long-held view was, or the views of the scholarly conservatives on these verses or the views of Bruce Winters. But I don't need to know in order to answer your question.

I compared the Greek of Papyrus 46 with the 1881 Westcott-Hort Greek edition. I found that verse 35 was identical. But verse 34 had one word spelled differently and two lines (8 words) altogether missing. It is most amazing how much of those ancient manuscripts are still intact.

I didn't see anything that was substantially different between the two. For example, there were no words used in either which differed from those used in the other.

Perhaps the variety of interpretations coincides with the variety of translations. Let's consider the passage in the New American Standard Version:


The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Paul cannot be asking that the women not be permitted to open their mouths. For in the chapter 11 of the same letter, he requests that women have their heads covered when praying or prophesying. Of course, a person can pray silently. But can she PROPHESY silently? :roll:
So I think that first of all, the apostle cannot mean for women to keep their mouths shut throughout the meeting.

In our day, when one thinks of someone "speaking", one thinks of them standing up and giving a speech. But the Online Bible Greek Lexicon, the NASB Greek Lexicon and Strong's Greek lexicon all give "talk" as one of its definitions of "λαλεω". If you subsitute "talk" for "speak", a quite different meaning seems to emerge. It is improper for a woman to talk in church, that is, to chat with her neighbour while someone is attempting to address the group. It is bad manners; it is improper; it detracts from the minsitry of the one who is speaking. For example, if Joe is giving a little talk about discipleship, and a woman turns to her neighbour and asks aloud, "Hey, what does he mean by...?" it can be quite disruptive. If she has a question she should ask her husband at home, rather than shout out her question in the assembly while someone else is attempting to give a dissertation.

In Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he was attempting to address several disorders in the assembly. Another one was that in the assembly, many people were speaking in tongues simultaneously. Paul told them that they should speak in tongues one at a time, and that in each case, someone should translate (or explain) what is said.

Another interesting fact is that Paul said that women are to SUBJECT THEMSELVES. This word is in the middle voice, and means that the woman acts upon herself. She is not forced or beaten down into submission. Her submission must come from within and willingly. It's not a matter of women being inferior to men, but of having a different position from men, according to God's order. It may be compared to the relationship between God the Father and His beloved Son. The Son always was and always will be willingly subject to His Father; yet He is in no sense inferior to His Father.

Re: Earliest text question

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:38 pm
by marty
I agree with your points Paidon. The verses do not substantially change either way. Thank you.