God's commands in Jesus and the coming of the new covenant.

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JacobMartinMertens
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God's commands in Jesus and the coming of the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:57 pm

I would like to connect you to content I posted today that we can discuss here. The thread is related to things I have posted here and there and elsewhere. It is called, God's commands in Jesus and the coming of the new covenant.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.ph ... w-covenant

God's commands in Jesus and the coming of the new covenant.

In Jesus Christ we have the coming of the new covenant. In Him we also have God's commands. The commands of Jesus are the commands of God.

What is the relationship between the new covenant and the commands of Jesus which are the commands of God?
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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morbo3000
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Re: God's commands in Jesus and the coming of the new covena

Post by morbo3000 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:18 pm

That post is a very good description of what you believe.

Why do you end with a question? You start your post with the question. You answer your own question in the post. And then ask it again at the end. Then, you link us to your post in the other forum, and follow it up with the same question you began and ended the forum post with.

It seems like you are asking the question as bait to get us to give you a launching pad to restate your thesis.

[edit] I just logged into that forum, and followed one of your threads. You only ask questions, with no conclusions. Fishing for the right answer from people. It is very frustrating. I saw four pages of the same thing. People give you answers, followed by fishing questions from you. I don't think you are going to find anyone on this board who will take your bait.
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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's commands in Jesus and the coming of the new covena

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:47 pm

morbo3000 wrote:That post is a very good description of what you believe.

Why do you end with a question? You start your post with the question. You answer your own question in the post. And then ask it again at the end. Then, you link us to your post in the other forum, and follow it up with the same question you began and ended the forum post with.

It seems like you are asking the question as bait to get us to give you a launching pad to restate your thesis.
No. I see your confusion. I actually posted there first, but wanted to include the question part of it here. What I have first from the link is what I know and have established to be true. What I have in the question is that we would look directly to what Jesus commands were and what the new covenant is.

God's commands in Jesus were for the nation of Israel. Are they also for everyone else? :) He brought us the new covenant. He was born under the Law. What He taught then was consistent with the Law. The new covenant was for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Somehow Gentiles are also included in the new covenant now. Can we accept all of Jesus' words for us? Meaning, if they were for Israel and those under the Law and as Christians we know we are not under the Law, is this to say that now not being under the Law is a statement of being under grace, not being lawless, and being able to observe God's Law if even by the Spirit of God? And that what Jesus taught (He observed and taught the Law) includes the Law and can be for Gentiles as well as Israelites and Jews? Are Jesus' commands for you and me? I know salvation is not by works, but I still must say yes. That is, we are to obey God's commands in Jesus Christ. Just how, and why? We are not under the Law as Christians, but the Law was for Israel and the whole world, just as we know that Jesus' commands are the commands of God for them then or for us today.

New covenant commands or new covenant law or New Testament commands is a different discussion from the commands of Jesus and the new covenant. It is because Jesus lived under old covenant law and kept it perfectly. Jesus is more or better than Moses, but Jesus kept God's commands in Moses. In that He kept them did He abolish them? Or in that He kept them does Israel still observe them (and what about us?)? I was born a Gentile, and have identified as Jewish. I came close to God's Law and learned from it. I learned about Jesus keeping and observing it. I have learned that Jesus is better than Moses. But I know Moses is not anything other than God's commands (not, "man's commands" or "man's law"). The Law of Moses is God's Law. We are talking about old covenant law belonging to God, not man. We ought to live and observe God's Law as our own. Or, we ought to look to Jesus' commands as see if they are for us, even if we were never under the Law. For, He was under the Law. And something happened in regard to the old covenant that there would be a reason or need for a new covenant (See Jeremiah 31:32 NASB). Then, what is the new covenant, and does it relate to any commands even Jesus' commands? Do Jesus' commands exclude or include God's commands? The new covenant IS new. It is not like the old. But what is the new covenant and does it have any commands? What are the commands of Jesus and were they for Israel, are they still for Israel, and in the context of both of these questions are Jesus' commands for Gentiles being God's commands for Gentiles, either different from old covenant commands, the same and more, or different altogether? If He observed and taught the Law and He is better than Moses (His ministry is better than that of Moses), what does that say of the Law for then and now, and what does that say of if He taught anything different from the Law (without contradicting the Law)? Did He teach the Law and more? Are Jesus' commands and the new covenant including the Law and are they (even) more than the Law? I believe we are not only to learn from Jesus, we are to obey Him. Do I do this as a Jew? Even a Jew who is a new covenant believer? Or, do I realize that I was not born a Jew, I believe Yeshua (Jesus) to be the Messiah, and I understand that I am to obey His commands (and whether or not this relates to salvation, since in Paul and for the Gentiles (Jews too) we learn that salvation is not by or of works, the works of the Law, by which we could never be justified). He is my Lord. Jesus is Lord. Is it possible to obey Jesus and not obey God's Law at the same time? I think that is the question I am left with. How would obeying Jesus be anything different from obeying God''s Law, even if it is more than this?

I haven't found anything different from saying that I don't know what the New Testament commands or new covenant commands or law are. If we listen to Paul, and we should, we will find that we should and ought to obey and observe or keep God's commands. Does this include what Jesus taught? The apostles and the prophets, and Jesus. Is this teaching or does it involve what we are to do in obedience? Paul taught obedience in faith. Do we, even if we are Gentiles or no longer Gentiles whether Jews or not, obey Jesus in everything He taught? Why would we think otherwise? Why am I even asking this question? I see a need for it, for myself and hopefully you can see the need in this for others not just because it is a need for myself to understand. Salvation is not by works it is by faith. But where obedience comes in, and it does come in with Paul, are we to obey Jesus? This is the new covenant and Jesus' commands. Unless the new covenant does not involve Jesus' commands and/or anyone else's commands as well.

Can I obey Jesus? Was all accomplished? I ask both these questions, and not knowing a sure answer to the second even with regard to the first, I must for now continue to come back to the first.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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Re: God's commands in Jesus and the coming of the new covena

Post by dizerner » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:19 am

You might find something that addresses this idea in this answer I wrote to a Roman Catholic on Sola Fide; he tried to say we are justified by love and not just faith, because if we have faith to move mountains but have not love, we are nothing. Here is what I answered:

But I would say, the point of faith alone is not for the faith to stay alone. We need a lot of things to obey Scripture—and we shouldn't say that it's works or merit simply to obey. What we point out is, no one really does obey—not really in the heart of it. This is why we bring the Law in to convict, even religious or godly men, because the truth is they don't measure up.

Faith alone, but faith never stays alone—this would be my motto. After all, Jesus said we would bear fruit, aye. Jesus said he is the life. If apart from him we can do nothing—with him, we can do all things. This is grace, amazing grace.

The amazing thing about that love chapter is, how many things in it people think are love. Give all to the poor. Give my body to be burned. Faith that moves mountains. To many people that looks like love. How can you give it all away, even one's life, and theoretically not have love?

So I say, there's only one loving man that ever lived. There's only one good man that ever lived. There's only one perfect man that ever lived. There's only one normal man that ever lived. And that is Jesus Christ, who gave all he had to the poor and his body to be burned, so to speak. But he did it without a hint of pride or selfish motivation, he did it with love.

How does that all tie in. I don't think we can love without faith. I don't think we can turn the other cheek, reach across the isle of denominations or sectarianism, lay our life low in the dust, or go on a pilgrimage or mecca or become a monk, with that perfect love, unless we first have faith that Jesus is our Life, and Jesus can live again through us and in us—this is why we are his body and why we should see him in each other.

Is there some irony here? I think there is. Many of the people who preach their doctrine, do not do it in love. What is truth with out love? Until love and truth meet together, righteousness and peace never kiss (Ps. 85:10).

I preach faith alone because, and only because, I'm an empty vessel. When I draw near and cast my gaze up at the Cross and Jesus on there alone, it makes me think of all the people I've seen going by in life—all those people thinking about what they can get, their interests, their pursuits, their goals, their dreams, their selfish lusts, and here... here is a man alone, but one man that actually cares. He cares for my soul, even when my soul is selfish like all the others, even when I was carried along in the madding crowd in the carnival and Vanity Fair of life, to stoop down, to see one soul beaten up, sinful, lost, hurting, to see in the face of Christ real love... well that takes faith.

Can I love like Christ? Can I hang on that cross? Can I look others in the eye and hope and pray that they don't even see me but see the heart and voice and action of my Savior behind me? Can I find love if I rummage around inside me and look and look in my heart for that love like Christ had, or will I keep finding the same ugly and vile selfish face that just wants to look good in the eyes of others, feel good in the pride of my heart, feel good in the flesh of my body, have my own dreams and desires met and even if I help others only to make myself feel good and righteous and holy, I still then move on and not really hear their heartbeat, not really care for their soul.

There's an interesting verse that goes like this:
For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters,
To hew for themselves cisterns,
Broken cisterns That can hold no water.


I started gaming online a little years ago now, I'm not a gamer, but I couldn't handle my depression and hopelessness. Ended up my gaming nick turned out to be "Broken" and the more I thought about it the more I saw myself that way, the more I realized just how deeply broken I was, how deeply broken we all are. I've managed to give that up now, but I remember the feeling, and still feel the feeling, of just how broken and empty we all are, in reality. When's the last time you talked to someone and just felt loved? When's the last time you took the time out to tell someone or show someone, "Hey, I might not know you, but I care about you—I care about how you feel, about who you are, about what's important to you, about your thoughts."

At this point you may be saying, "Aha, you've just proven me right." But here's the thing. Although I always do this, I try to reach out to people that are so dissimilar than me, people that don't even care about me back, I do it because of one reason and one reason alone: He first loved me. It's his love I'm sharing, not even my own. I'm an empty vessel, I'm a nothing, I'm another selfish guy just wanting people that make me feel good or who like what I like, I wouldn't normally make the effort to go to someone that everything in me says "I don't like this style of person, I don't want to stretch myself to talk to this person," but as Paul said "the love of Christ compels us," and sometimes I end up hurt.

Faith, hope and love, these three. In the beginning of Romans 5 we have an interesting passage, often verse 1 being quoted for Sola Fide, but when we read on what do we see. Faith gives us access to grace, we boast in hope, we glory in sufferings, suffering works out character, and character... this is an interesting statement that always puzzled me: character gives us hope. Wow. We have faith here in verse 1, goes on in verse 2, 3, 4 we see hope and hope again. But we are at verse 5 now and we say, faith, hope, but the greatest of these is love, where's the love? (What is love? Baby don't hurt me... okay no.) And here it is at the end:

And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Faith, something we have; hope, something we have; love... love? Love is something God has. It's God's love that is poured out in us. God's faith isn't poured out in us. God's hope isn't poured out in us. But God's love... God is the one that has the love. And it comes by faith and it comes by hope. I can't count the days I didn't feel very loving, but I kept my eyes on the Christ as the solution for our self-life, his love as the solution for our sin. And I started to love people, people I wouldn't even normally associate with.

I do think the greatest of these is love. But the only place I've ever found that love is at the foot of that cross looking up into a bloodied and weary and lonely and God-forsaken face, the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, while the world spins and spins and people go on pursuing their business and their pleasure and their fun and their fame, that face stands, like the statue of Christ the Redeemer looking over vanity of the world, saying, here, here is finally love. Real love. Not usually requited love, often ignored love, but God's love available. And who can receive, how can one take hold of this, is this love for me, freely and without cost, to buy and eat and drink, what do I need to bring? I can tell a sinful soul or a prideful soul or a lonely soul or a hurt soul, you only need one thing to receive this love, to make this love yours: all you need to receive this love is one thing: faith. Faith alone.

...through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand...
...because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit...
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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Re: God's commands in Jesus and the coming of the new covena

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:33 am

...
dizerner wrote:And I started to love people, people I wouldn't even normally associate with.

I do think the greatest of these is love. But the only place I've ever found that love is at the foot of that cross looking up into a bloodied and weary and lonely and God-forsaken face, the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, while the world spins and spins and people go on pursuing their business and their pleasure and their fun and their fame, that face stands, like the statue of Christ the Redeemer looking over vanity of the world, saying, here, here is finally love. Real love. Not usually requited love, often ignored love, but God's love available. And who can receive, how can one take hold of this, is this love for me, freely and without cost, to buy and eat and drink, what do I need to bring? I can tell a sinful soul or a prideful soul or a lonely soul or a hurt soul, you only need one thing to receive this love, to make this love yours: all you need to receive this love is one thing: faith. Faith alone.

...through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand...
...because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit...
These two verses at the end capture what you are saying. A good conclusion and key verses for understanding all that you have said. If the conversations people have are not about salvation, what are they about? :)
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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