The New Covenant and Capital Punishment; Are they Compatible

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JacobMartinMertens
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The New Covenant and Capital Punishment; Are they Compatible

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun May 01, 2016 2:13 pm

I would like to discuss the Torah and Civil Law, but as a new covenant believer I must, possibly first, answer the question of if capital punishment (the death penalty) is in agreement with the new covenant? That is the purpose of this thread and discussing this question at this time.

The consequences are that the Torah and Civil Law, the Old Covenant Law, either remains (Would this only be for the nation of Israel? Or, is there such a thing as a God fearing nation apart from the nation of Israel that observes God's Law or even some portion of it?), or the New Covenant has brought a change of law, a new law, or no law at all. Is it basic to believe that the new covenant does not do away with the old covenant? Does the new covenant change the old covenant in any way?

The Prophet Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 31:33 NASB - 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The Messiah Jesus.

Matthew 5:17 NASB - 17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

The Apostle Paul.

Romans 3:19 NASB - 19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

Ephesians 2:15 NASB - 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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Re: The New Covenant and Capital Punishment; Are they Compat

Post by Paidion » Sun May 01, 2016 2:38 pm

Jacob, I think Paul said a lot in Galatians to address the issues you raised:

Galatians 2:
11 ... when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.
13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!
18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
1 ¶ O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
6 ¶ just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.
16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.
17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19 ¶ Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Paidion

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Re: The New Covenant and Capital Punishment; Are they Compat

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun May 01, 2016 3:00 pm

Paidion wrote:Jacob, I think Paul said a lot in Galatians to address the issues you raised:

Galatians 2:
11 ... when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.
13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!
18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
1 ¶ O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
6 ¶ just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.
16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.
17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19 ¶ Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Paidon,

Thank you for your response.

Do you believe there is any law in the new covenant? I see no problem with fellowship between Jew and Gentile. We worship the same God, the God of Israel, the Creator, the One and Only True God. Do you see salvation (by grace through faith) and law as different or do you believe there is no longer any law? How do you define works of the law? I see works of the law as different from the law. I'm not sure what bearing this has on my thoughts or the truth, however.

Also, do you believe capital punishment for murderers to be unique to the law of Moses? That is, can you find it elsewhere in the Bible? If you can, what do you say about capital punishment now? I am a new covenant believer, and I accept the whole Bible. I also do not believe the old covenant began at creation.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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Re: The New Covenant and Capital Punishment; Are they Compat

Post by Paidion » Sun May 01, 2016 9:48 pm

Do you believe there is any law in the new covenant?
Jacob, I have told you more than one that the law under the New Covenant is the law of Christ, expressed in Matt 5, 6, an 7. Why do you keep asking a question for which you have been given an answer? I'll spell out a few of Jesus commands (I can't say these are "The Ten Commandments" of the New Covenant." There are many more. Keep reading Jesus' words!

1. Do not take an oath at all. (Matt 5:34)

2. Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. (Matt 5:39-41)

3. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. (Matt 4:42)

4. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Matt 5:44)

5. You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matt 5:48)

6. When you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others...But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.
(Matt 6:2,3)

7. When you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. (Matt 6:6-8)

8. When you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. (Matt 6:16-18)

9. Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. (Matt 6:19-21)

10. Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? (Matt 6:25,26)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: The New Covenant and Capital Punishment; Are they Compat

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun May 01, 2016 9:59 pm

Paidion wrote:
Do you believe there is any law in the new covenant?
Jacob, I have told you more than one that the law under the New Covenant is the law of Christ, expressed in Matt 5, 6, and 7. Why do you keep asking a question for which you have been given an answer? I'll spell out a few of Jesus commands (I can't say these are "The Ten Commandments" of the New Covenant." There are many more. Keep reading Jesus' words!

1. Do not take an oath at all. (Matt 5:34)

2. Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. (Matt 5:39-41)

3. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. (Matt 4:42)

4. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Matt 5:44)

5. You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matt 5:48)

6. When you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others...But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.
(Matt 6:2,3)

7. When you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. (Matt 6:6-8)

8. When you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. (Matt 6:16-18)

9. Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. (Matt 6:19-21)

10. Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? (Matt 6:25,26)
The law of Christ is mentioned two places in the New Testament writings.

Each thread has an OP (an opening post). You are free to respond in each thread I post. The subject may be different, and different, similar, or some of the same questions, but the content is likely not the same. The threads I have created are not identical.

Matthew 5, 6, and 7 are great! Thanks for sharing.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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Re: The New Covenant and Capital Punishment; Are they Compat

Post by Paidion » Mon May 02, 2016 10:39 am

Jacob, you wrote:I would like to discuss the Torah and Civil Law, but as a new covenant believer I must, possibly first, answer the question of if capital punishment (the death penalty) is in agreement with the new covenant? That is the purpose of this thread and discussing this question at this time.
The death penalty used to be administered in Canada, and it is still administered in 31 of the 50 states of United States.
Hundreds of people have been put to death mistakenly. In some cases, DNA testing has proved that innocent people were given the death penalty. For that reason, the death penalty should never be given. It is better not to kill guilty people than to risk killing innocent people.

What is your opinion? Should rebellious children and those who commit adultery be put to death (as in the law of Moses)?
Obviously Jesus didn't think adulteresses should be put to death. When the Pharisees pointed out to him that the woman caught in adultery should be stoned according to Mosaic law, Jesus brought conviction on them all by saying, "He who is without sin can be the first to throw a stone at her." (John 8:7). After they all departed, one by one, did Jesus then administer capital punishment to her for adultery? No, He simply said, "I do not condemn you. Go, and sin no more."

In the 17th century in Connecticut, the laws for administering capital punishment were all taken from the laws of Moses. Each Connecticut law was justified by giving a scriptural reference. Do you think such laws as those in Connecticut should still be carried out today?

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Paidion

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Re: The New Covenant and Capital Punishment; Are they Compat

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Mon May 02, 2016 11:18 am

Paidion wrote:
Jacob, you wrote:I would like to discuss the Torah and Civil Law, but as a new covenant believer I must, possibly first, answer the question of if capital punishment (the death penalty) is in agreement with the new covenant? That is the purpose of this thread and discussing this question at this time.
The death penalty used to be administered in Canada, and it is still administered in 31 of the 50 states of United States.
Hundreds of people have been put to death mistakenly. In some cases, DNA testing has proved that innocent people were given the death penalty. For that reason, the death penalty should never be given. It is better not to kill guilty people than to risk killing innocent people.

What is your opinion? Should rebellious children and those who commit adultery be put to death (as in the law of Moses)?
Obviously Jesus didn't think adulteresses should be put to death. When the Pharisees pointed out to him that the woman caught in adultery should be stoned according to Mosaic law, Jesus brought conviction on them all by saying, "He who is without sin can be the first to throw a stone at her." (John 8:7). After they all departed, one by one, did Jesus then administer capital punishment to her for adultery? No, He simply said, "I do not condemn you. Go, and sin no more."

In the 17th century in Connecticut, the laws for administering capital punishment were all taken from the laws of Moses. Each Connecticut law was justified by giving a scriptural reference. Do you think such laws as those in Connecticut should still be carried out today?

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I see your argument against the death penalty. My question was if the death penalty, capital punishment (United States of America or Torah Law), remains or exists with the coming of the new covenant about two thousand years ago. I see no reason to speak against the Law of Moses. Does the new covenant retain, keep, or extinguish the death penalty in some or all cases, or is it indifferent to it?

Should a new covenant believer be put to death, owing to the absence of mercy in justice, for murder for example (Law of Moses or not (some point out that the Law of Moses or Torah / Civil Law is not the only Biblical injunction against murder))? Are new covenant believers exempt? Are all person's exempt? Are non believers guilty but believers saved (and forgiven)?

Many are worthy of death. All sinners die because of sin. But the death penalty has been administered in some cases in accordance or compliance with God's Law or state law (be it God's Law or secular law, we are talking about capital punishment, the death penalty, and if it is justified or supported by scripture (the new covenant having come in Jesus Christ)).

Yes, Jesus did not have the woman put to death. If He can be considered to be a witness to her offense He was the only one left.

Deuteronomy 17:6 NASB - 6 "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.

If innocent people have been put to death that is the fault of the court or the courts. It does not speak to if guilty people are worthy of death nor if those who are found guilty ought to according to Law be punished new covenant believer or potential new new covenant believer after the coming of the new covenant (such as if forgiveness in Christ exempts a person from the death penalty). The only reason I suggest this exemption is that even though the new covenant has come not all people are in covenant with God. We ought to preach the gospel if nothing else.

How do we understand forgiveness in the new covenant, in relation to the death penalty? Or, does forgiveness not speak to escape from the death penalty?
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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Re: The New Covenant and Capital Punishment; Are they Compat

Post by mattrose » Mon May 02, 2016 7:03 pm

The New Covenant is between God and The Church.

The Church does not put its misbehaving members to death. In worst case scenarios, the church ex-communicates misbehaving members.

What happens to ex-communicated members (those put back into 'the world') depends on the worldly nation they belong to. Some nations utilize capital punishment. Some don't. Worldly governments have been given the authority (Actually the mandate) to punish criminals.

Since the New Covenant documents are written to the Church, and not the State, there really isn't much in terms of direction for how states should best punish criminals. But what does touch on the subject seems, to me anyways, to grant them the right to utilize capital punishment if they see fit.

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Re: The New Covenant and Capital Punishment; Are they Compat

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Mon May 02, 2016 7:06 pm

mattrose wrote:The New Covenant is between God and The Church.

The Church does not put its misbehaving members to death. In worst case scenarios, the church ex-communicates misbehaving members.

What happens to ex-communicated members (those put back into 'the world') depends on the worldly nation they belong to. Some nations utilize capital punishment. Some don't. Worldly governments have been given the authority (Actually the mandate) to punish criminals.

Since the New Covenant documents are written to the Church, and not the State, there really isn't much in terms of direction for how states should best punish criminals. But what does touch on the subject seems, to me anyways, to grant them the right to utilize capital punishment if they see fit.
The new covenant was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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Re: The New Covenant and Capital Punishment; Are they Compat

Post by mattrose » Mon May 02, 2016 7:16 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:The new covenant was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
The New Covenant was made with disciples of Jesus Christ (aka, the church) who were Jewish, but ultimately included Jewish and Gentile believers (aka, again, the church).

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