Storing up treasures- MT 6:19, 20

Post by **_schoel** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:42 pm

atheist wrote:I am peeved at Americans who think of themselves as "poor" or even "modest" when in fact they have sooo much material wealth. It is what, the second richest country in the world PER CAPITA? And a country that also donates the smallest slice of its GDP to the third world aid! And these people overwhelmingly claim to follow New Testament's teachings? C'mon if that is not hipocrisy then I don't know what is.

Finally, I think Jesus did not advocate relying on others for suport as some said earlier. So taking that stance is a strawman argument. Jesus wanted you to work and earn wages... and to give away all of your earnings beyond the bare necessities to the poor of this world. Anything that falls short of that is clearly in violation of his teachings. It's that simple, people.

Atheist -
I find much to agree with in your statements. It also bothers me that many who claim to follow Christ do not seem to have regard for what He taught, including how we are to treat finances and material wealth. Since it all belongs to Him, it is my goal to return as much of it into His work and purposes as possible. I have no claim to perfection in this area, but am growing every day.

However, it is somewhat ironic that a Jesus that you reject taught a concern for the poor and downtrodden that you admire and attempt to practice.

Post by **_atheist** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:06 pm

schoel,
There was also a lot of stuff that Gandhi said that I totally agree with. That in itself does not make Gandhi divine in my eyes.

I have a similar opinion of Jesus. The guy was a genius when it comes to the ethics of social justice but I posit that all claims of his divinity are later embellishments of the authors of New Testament.

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:38 pm

I have a similar opinion of Jesus. The guy was a genius when it comes to the ethics of social justice but I posit that all claims of his divinity are later embellishments of the authors of New Testament.

That's an interesting claim. Could you elaborate on what you mean by this, both as far as Jesus' ethical genius and the later embellishments of the NT authors?

Post by **_TK** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:43 pm

I was thinking about atheist's comments last night and it was bothering me a bit-- particularly the comments about comparing the average american to the average resident of a 3rd world nation.

when Jesus talked about being rich, i think He meant "rich." the young ruler who approached him was rich. not compared to the natives living in the jungle but the average israelite. in other words, the rich young ruler had a lot of cash. just as we, in our american society, say that bill gates is rich, or pro athletes, etc. jesus's warning was for the rich. He didnt say "by the way, you middle class jews are rich too, compared to other people in the world."

what Atheist is trying to trap us into buying is that the average christian is rich, at least when compared to the poorest of the poor. i dont see any reason to believe that Jesus meant this. i dont think if the average middle class christian in america is "sinning" by going to work, paying their bills, living in a decent house, giving to the church etc. atheist seems to suggest that we are sinning (based on Jesus's teachings) if we dont live in cardboard shacks and wear burlap, just because there are others who have less. if the average middle class christian is "sinning" by living their life, wouldnt there be a lot more conviction about it? of course we are simply stewards and should maximize our giving. but i am not falling for the fallacy that i am rich, in the way that Jesus meant the term and in the context of the passage.

TK

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:36 pm

You're right TK. Atheist is misunderstanding scripture and then castigating Christians for not conforming to his misconceptions.

He also obviously has an axe to grind, which gives me doubt about his claims to objectivity.

Post by **_atheist** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:42 pm

You're right TK. Atheist is misunderstanding scripture and then castigating Christians for not conforming to his misconceptions.

He also obviously has an axe to grind, which gives me doubt about his claims to objectivity.

...and on goes the Christian tradition of demonizing those who are different or have a confilcting viewpoint.

Post by **_glow** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:51 pm

Personally I think, Because aetheist IS an aetheist. He is on the outside making judgments looking in. In that sense I can certainly see why he would think the way he does.We obviously are not going to support many of his ideas.

But he is trying to understand things that are confusing that some of us even deal with, as well as being compassionate to the unkind injustices of the world ( where we as Christians understand more united, were that comes from)I still remember struggling with some of those issues.

But as a Christian I can be compassionate( and I think others of us are trying to do the same) to his searching but in the end only agree with what our God says is truth. I stand with my God. Glow

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:10 pm

I wonder whether "Atheist" would consider R.G. LeTourneau as a true disciple of Christ? Or was he a "hypocrite"?

Mr. LeTourneau, who professed to be a Christian, was the creator of the famous "tournabull" earth-moving machines. He became rich, and practised reverse tithing. That is, he gave 90% of the money he received from his machines to charitable causes, mostly to the poor, and kept only 10% for himself. That certainly seems generous, when one considers that nearly all the rich people in this continent give a much lower percentage of their income to charity than do poor and middle-class people.

However, the 10% which Le Tourneau kept for himself was of such a quantity that it alone would make him an upper-class American.

So, "Atheist", did Mr. Le Tourneau demonstrate by the fact that he gave 90% of his income to the needy, that he followed Jesus' teaching? Or did he demonstrate that he was as self-serving as any average American, by keeping so much for himself?

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:20 pm

Oh come on. You're tougher than that. Or else you wouldn't come onto a Christian forum, announce yourself as an atheist and begin criticizing the values, lifestyles and beliefs of Christians.

Can you take it as well as dish it out? I enjoy dialog & debate with atheists and can do so without having my feelings hurt. Objectivity and all that.

So, let's go back to your claim about Jesus being an ethical genius and the later embellishments of the NT authors. How did you come to these conclusions?

Post by **_atheist** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:38 pm

Paidion,
This LeTournau guy (I was not aware of him) sounds like a great person but I would argue he didn't follow the teachings of Jesus. Had he given away everything except that which is required for basic sustainance then he would have been able to claim he lived by the Christian doctrine.

Mort_Coyle,

So, let's go back to your claim about Jesus being an ethical genius and the later embellishments of the NT authors. How did you come to these conclusions?

Jesus was ahead of his time in his thinking about the structure of a society. Basically someone we call a genius. However, when it comes to miracle performing, curing the sick, raising the dead, etc. well... extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and just because someone wrote about them in a book does not make those claims true.

Students of Pythagoras also atrributed miracles to him. We can all agree that Pythagoras was a clever man. But likely, both you and I will toss any claims of his miracles into the dustbin of mythology. Why not apply the same logic to Jesus and stories about him?