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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:04 am

Danny you wrote:My point in bringing up those quotes about inter-racial marriage was simply to point out that the "slippery slope" argument has been used in the past in the same way it is being used now. It was as fallacious then as it is now. It is a very weak argument to use, and one that is prone to sensationalism and hyperbole.
I think you are incorrect in regarding the slippery-slope argument as fallacious. You have not proved it to be so by simply pointing out one way in which it has been misapplied in the past.

In Canada, pro-lifers rightly used the slippery-slope argument with regards to abortion. At the time, abortion was illegal in Canada, but thanks to the illegal activities of Henry Morgenthaler (performing abortions and going to prison for it), Canada began to permit abortions rather restrictively, until Canada's abortion practice fell down the slippery slope all the way. Now there are no laws in Canada against any form of abortion --- even the horrible procedure of "partial birth abortion" (a misnomer). The procedure should properly be called "infanticide", since it is performed in the last month of pregnancy, sometimes immediately before what would otherwise be a birth. The baby is first turned around so that it's head does not come out (if the head does not emerge, then legally it's not "a baby"). Then instruments are used to crush the head of the baby. But legally it's not torture or homicide, since it's not done to a human being.

During an election, I emailed one of the local candidates concerning the immorality of "partial birth abortions" and his obligation as a potential Member of Parliament to oppose the practice. He wrote back saying, "It may be immoral, but it's a woman's right to have one!"

JC you wrote:I understand the argument that if Christians have a voice, they should use it. I agree with that, but disagree with how that voice should be used. When asked for my opinion on gay-marriage I usually just say it has nothing to do with me.
If asked your opinion on "partial-birth abortions" would you give the same answer?

I suppose some people might want to differentiate between the two by affirming that homosexual "marriage" does not hurt anyone as "partial birth abortions" do. There is no harmful outcome to such a "marriage". It concerns no one but themselves. But is that, in fact, the case? It has yet to be demonstrated. It is a fact that most homosexualilty is not due to "natural" inclinations, but is learned behaviour --- sometimes through an early experience, forced or otherwise. Most homosexuals have hundreds of partners over a year's time. Few heterosexuals have that many. In my opinion, when homosexual couples within a "legal marriage" are permitted to adopt children "just like any other married couple", the children are likely to be induced into homosexual experience. If I am right, then it certainly does concern someone other than themselves, namely, the children they will be permitted to adopt. And what may happen to those children is indeed a harmful outcome!
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:27 pm

Homer, congrats on 49 years of marriage. I could learn a lot from a man like yourself.

How bout congrats to Homer's wife! :D

I know one thing which is when Christians get involved with attacking homosexuals the Christians end up looking intolerant.
And yes you can say it's a defense of marriage issue but from what i hear the rate of divorce is the same for Christians as unbelievers so who are we to defend the sanctity of secular marriages. This is a secular marriage issue, a gay marriage is not a biblical marriage under God.
Lastly i suspect after the excitement wears off that in the long run not that many gays will really want to be married.
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:26 pm

Steve7150 wrote:I know one thing which is when Christians get involved with attacking homosexuals the Christians end up looking intolerant.


Are you unable to distinguish between protesting homosexual "marriage" and attacking homosexuals?

Indeed, I am intolerant of extending the definition of marriage to include homosexual unions. Anything wrong with that?

Besides, total tolerance in all matters has its paradigm in Charlie Brown. Is he worthy of emulation?

Many of those who insist on tolerance in our day, are not demanding tolerance in the classical sense of the word. They are demanding approval.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:12 pm

Are you unable to distinguish between protesting homosexual "marriage" and attacking homosexuals?

Indeed, I am intolerant of extending the definition of marriage to include homosexual unions. Anything wrong with that?


Paidion, I can distinguish the difference but the general public can not and we indeed are perceived as witch hunters despite our righteous anger. Remember the kingdom of the world is not the kingdom of God and there are inumerable things we can't control like, gambling, prostitution,pornography, bars , public schools, sex on TV , drugs, glorification of evil, abortion, etc etc. It's an endless list, thus do we fight each evil in the secular arena or try to live our lives like Christ told us to.

And you should be intolerant of gay marriage but we live in a secular democracy and sadly the tide of opinion is shifting against biblical values.
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Post by _Suzana » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:09 pm

Paidion
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Paidion, Brother!

I'm just not sure about the hairstyle.
Does your wife know you are sharing this on the world wide web??? :D
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:32 pm

Steve 7150 you wrote:Paidion, I can distinguish the difference but the general public can not and we indeed are perceived as witch hunters despite our righteous anger. Remember the kingdom of the world is not the kingdom of God and there are inumerable things we can't control like, gambling, prostitution,pornography, bars , public schools, sex on TV , drugs, glorification of evil, abortion, etc etc. It's an endless list, thus do we fight each evil in the secular arena or try to live our lives like Christ told us to.
Of course we can't "control" evil, but we can do a heck of a lot to temper it. My wife and I and Christian friends participated in a peaceful protest march with respect to a hospital in Thunder Bay that was performing abortions. The police accompanied us in order to prevent any potential trouble, and we thanked them. Did it prevent any abortions? I don't know, but we made a statement to the city. I know also, that when many people protest, it has an effect.

Some pro-life protesters were heavily fined and imprisoned longer than some murderers. Unfortunately this seems to have had its desired effect in reducing the number of protests in recent years. Yet many have endured the persecution for the sake of righteousness.

Today, many "Christians" as so wimpy that are afraid to admit that they are even pro-life.
And you should be intolerant of gay marriage but we live in a secular democracy and sadly the tide of opinion is shifting against biblical values.
And does that fact imply that we disciples of Christ should shift our opinions along with the tide? Or maybe it means that we can hold our opinons in secret, but do nothing.
Suzana you wrote:I'm just not sure about the hairstyle.
Does your wife know you are sharing this on the world wide web???
I know you are attempting some kind of lighthearted humour. Nevertheless, I fail to see the point.

In any case, my wife must know that I posted my photo, since she has been following this thread --- whatever that has to do with anything...
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:32 pm

Hi Suzana,

The points you have brought up prove my assertion that the matter is highly debatable. We could continue down that road, offering counter-arguments and pasting quotes from various sources, but that's been done ad nauseum and probably won't change any minds here.

I will say this though, regarding the "authorities" that you quoted:

The credibility of Exodus Global Alliance (formerly Exodus International) is tenuous at best. Especially after Exodus co-founder Michael Bussee, former president of Exodus International Europe Jeremy Marks and Darlene Bogle, the founder and former director of Paraklete Ministries, an Exodus referral agency, all admitted that they are still gay and that sexual orientation cannot be changed. Their conclusion is in agreement with the American Psychiatric Association and the consensus of the medical and scientific establishment.

Likewise, the "research" of Paul Cameron, which you cited, has been shown to be so flawed as to be essentially worthless. Here is a link to a detailed critique of the gross errors in Cameron's methodologies:

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/H ... urvey.html

And a Wall Street Journal story which debunked Cameron's "research":

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB ... 18400.html

And a link that provides a more complete and accurate view on the topic of homosexuals and child molestation:

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/H ... ation.html

C'mon guys! Saying you are against gay marriage because you believe that the Bible forbids it is one thing. There is integrity in that. Using discredited "scientific" authorities and fallacious logic makes it look like you're trying to shore up your position by any means possible. We are supposed to be people of Truth, not purveyors of pseudo-scientific chicanery.

Lastly, why do you think homosexual relationships have typically not been long-term? Think about it: What would happen if heterosexual marriage was not allowed and heterosexual relationships were shunned and shamed? Heterosexuals would go underground and develop a subculture. Here's the rub: We want homosexuals to stay in the closet and then we condemn them for what goes on in that closet. If a gay person could be treated like anyone else, including the opportunity of living a married life with the person they love, you would see an increase in long-term monogamous same-sex relationships. This is, in fact, exactly what has happened in places where gays have been accepted and allowed to live "out of the closet".

Paidion, you're talking apples and oranges. Abortion is an act of violence upon an innocent and defenseless being, whether early in the term or late in the term. There is a fundamental difference, on the other hand, between two consenting adults getting married and an adult and a child getting married. The latter clearly exposes one party (the child) to exploitation and victimization. The former does not expose either party to such dangers.

And the Slippery Slope form of argument is, in rhetoric and logic, considered a fallacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
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Post by _Suzana » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:44 am

Paidion,

My humble apologies. I meant no offence. I actually love old photos.
I’ll try to restrict my Aussie humour to less serious threads.
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Post by _Suzana » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:56 am

Hi Danny,
The credibility of Exodus Global Alliance (formerly Exodus International) is tenuous at best. Especially after Exodus co-founder Michael Bussee, former president of Exodus International Europe Jeremy Marks and Darlene Bogle, the founder and former director of Paraklete Ministries, an Exodus referral agency, all admitted that they are still gay and that sexual orientation cannot be changed. Their conclusion is in agreement with the American Psychiatric Association and the consensus of the medical and scientific establishment.
That may be their opinion and own experience, but quite a sweeping statement to make. (which is why I feel the need to do just one more paste). There are others that disagree with them, and who testify of being delivered from their homosexual condition.
I’d just like to quote from an Australian book written by someone who had struggled with the issue for years:
“…when true repentance was made, not only was I liberated but healing from the orientation itself became a reality.”*

He believes that “homosexual orientation is not sin, it is an unfortunate condition”, but that “homosexual behaviour (acts) is a serious sin”, and
“I know of no other answer to the problem, I believe that once homosexual orientation has got a grip on a person and homosexual habits have been formed, only the power and love of God can set the captive free.”

I don’t have any personal experience to speak from, but do understand that is the biblical teaching. Since the secular scientific establishment has no concept of sin, I would not expect them to take that into consideration when forming their opinions; For myself, I would rather believe what God has revealed in his word. Nor would I judge those in the world, or think homosexual sin is any worse than any other sexual sin. But for the Christian it should be different.

I went to the Exodus site because I know a couple (mature Christians) who have for years worked with the organisation here in Brisbane.

I guess this issue will remain highly debatable.
..................................................................

* ‘Healing for all homosexual conditions’ by Ron G. Weeks, published in 1990 by ‘Encouraging Christian Ministries’ PO Box 655, Murray Bridge, South Australia 5253.

From the introduction: “Since my own liberation and healing which climaxed eight years ago, I have spent much time in study of the homosexual condition, to gain more knowledge with the view to helping others out of the dilemma. I have met and consulted with other counsellors and specialists in this field. I have read many books and papers and attended seminars and training courses with a desire to further my own knowledge and ministry. Although, not claiming to be an authority, I do believe I qualify to publish this piece of literature.”
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Post by _Paidion » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:30 am

Sue wrote:Paidion,

My humble apologies. I meant no offence. I actually love old photos.
I’ll try to restrict my Aussie humour to less serious threads.
Sue, I know you meant no offence. It is I who should apologize to you --- and I do so.

Because of the way I felt at this time about this serious issue, it just didn't seem to me the time for any levity. But my wife who is following the thread, explained to me that your humour was an aside, and not meant to relate to the topic.

Please forgive me for responding in a way which now appears to me to have been hostile. I assure you it wasn't my intention to be hostile. Indeed, I greatly appreciate your posts, especially on this issue.
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