Christians and the Covid Vaccine

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Homer
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by Homer » Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:56 pm

Darin,

This is no argument against vaccines. They aren't a perfect 100% effective.

From CBS news, 8 hours ago:
Harvard is requiring vaccination against COVID-19 for all of its community members, including students, faculty, staff and researchers. There were 62 positive tests among graduate students and three in its undergraduate population for the week of September 19.
That amounts to a total of 65 cases out of a total of over 39,000 students and staff (.00166%). With 95% vaccinated I would say the vaccine is doing a great job. And they only shut down first and some second year MBA students for at least a week.

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darinhouston
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by darinhouston » Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:57 am

Homer wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:56 pm
Darin,

This is no argument against vaccines. They aren't a perfect 100% effective.

From CBS news, 8 hours ago:
Harvard is requiring vaccination against COVID-19 for all of its community members, including students, faculty, staff and researchers. There were 62 positive tests among graduate students and three in its undergraduate population for the week of September 19.
That amounts to a total of 65 cases out of a total of over 39,000 students and staff (.00166%). With 95% vaccinated I would say the vaccine is doing a great job. And they only shut down first and some second year MBA students for at least a week.
You're clearly going to believe what you want, but this is interesting...

https://www.justfactsdaily.com/covid-19 ... vaccinated

On Friday, September 17, the CDC published a study that refutes the common claim that Covid-19 is a “pandemic of the unvaccinated.” Coauthored by more than 50 MD’s and Ph.D.’s, the study contains data on the vaccine status of adults hospitalized with Covid-19 at 21 U.S. hospitals across 18 states during March to August of 2021.

Contrary to assertions from the Associated Press and Anthony Fauci that fully vaccinated people comprise only 1% of those being hospitalized or killed by C-19, the study found that 13% of patients hospitalized with C-19 had been fully vaccinated. Moreover, that 13% figure is just the tip of iceberg because the authors excluded from their study a large group of hospitalized C-19 patients, the bulk of whom were likely vaccinated.

About half of the omitted group and 27% of the C-19 patients in these hospitals were people with “immunocompromising conditions,” such as cancer, HIV, rheumatoid arthritis, psoriasis, scleroderma, and Crohn’s disease. In the words of an FDA official and 18 other coauthors published in a medical journal, “immunocompromised individuals” were “prioritized for early immunization” and are “plausibly more likely to be offered and seek vaccination” because they are highly vulnerable to C-19.

On September 21, Just Facts asked Dr. Wesley Self, the lead author of the study, to release the data on the vaccination status of the C-19 patients with immunocompromising conditions. He has not replied.

The authors of the CDC study also excluded another 25% of all people hospitalized with C-19 because they were partially vaccinated, “received a Covid-19 vaccine other than Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech, or Janssen [J&J],” or “received doses of two different Covid-19 vaccine products.”

Accounting for all of the C-19 patients in these hospitals, including those the authors excluded, a majority may have been fully or partially vaccinated against Covid:

Image

Filling the gap left by vagueness of the CDC’s study, a precise measure of the vaccine status of people who died from the Covid-19 Delta variant is available from the United Kingdom, where the government keeps detailed healthcare records on nearly all citizens. Relevantly, the U.S. and UK have very similar C-19 death rates and had roughly equivalent vaccination rates over the period of the CDC study.

In the UK from February through August 2021, 62% of all Covid-19 Delta variant deaths were among the fully vaccinated. This amounts to a conclusive majority in a dataset with virtually every death included.

Seeing Through False Statistics

The story behind the talking point that Covid-19 is “a pandemic of the unvaccinated” is a textbook case of how false statistics are born and proliferate. Hence, it provides valuable insights about the dangers of blind trust and how to recognize deceitful rhetoric.

Late in June 2021, the Associated Press published an article titled, “Nearly All COVID Deaths in US Are Now Among Unvaccinated.” Written by Carla K. Johnson and Mike Stobbe, it was republished or cited by more than 100 media outlets and so-called fact checkers like PBS, Snopes, Bloomberg, the Boston Globe, the Los Angeles Times, FactCheck.org, Yahoo News, and WebMD.

The article claims the AP conducted an “analysis” that found only 1.1% of all C-19 hospitalizations and 0.8% of C-19 deaths in May were due to “breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people.” While using those decimal points that convey a false sense of precision, the authors slipped in this craftily worded admission: the AP calculated these rates based on “figures provided by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,” but the CDC has not published such rates due to “limitations in the data.”

Those limitations, in the words of the AP, include the reality that “some” states are “more aggressive than others in looking for such cases.” The word “looking” is a coy way of saying that the states don’t have a comprehensive system to count these deaths, a fact that throws the entire analysis into doubt.

With a subtle nod to that reality, the AP confesses that the “data probably understates” the number of vaccinated people who died from Covid-19. Compare that softly worded disclosure to the CDC’s explicit warning that its data on breakthrough infections “relies on passive and voluntary reporting, and data might not be complete or representative.” On August 25, the CDC strengthened that language to make clear that the “data are not complete or representative.”

Put simply, the AP’s statistics are meaningless because they are based on materially incomplete data. That was evident from the outset from a close look at the AP’s methodology, and it is now undeniable given the CDC study and UK data detailed above. Again, these indicate that fully vaccinated people comprise about 50% of all Covid-19 hospitalizations and deaths, not 1% as reported by the AP.

Nevertheless, Fauci appeared on the July 4th edition of NBC’s Meet the Press with Chuck Todd and parroted the AP’s bogus stat without mentioning any of its caveats. “If you look at the number of deaths,” declared Fauci, “about 99.2% of them are unvaccinated. About 0.8% are vaccinated. No vaccine is perfect. But when you talk about the avoidability of hospitalization and death, Chuck, it’s really sad and tragic that most all of these are avoidable and preventable.”

As Fauci uttered this misinformation, Todd, the political director of NBC News, never expressed a hint of skepticism. Acting like a mouthpiece instead of a journalist, Todd ended the segment by praising Fauci for “focusing” on his job and this “massive success story when it comes to vaccines and what this government-led effort did.”

Instead of correcting the AP and Fauci for misrepresenting CDC data, the director of the CDC, Dr. Rochelle Walensky, amplified it. During a July 16th White House press conference with Fauci by her side, Walensky stated that “over 97 percent of people who are entering the hospital right now are unvaccinated” and that Covid-19 “is becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated.”

In turn, media outlets acted as megaphones for Fauci and Walensky without a word of critical analysis. This involved reports from the likes of ABC News, NPR, The Hill, CNN, Politico, Rolling Stone, USA Today, The Guardian, and the Washington Post, as well as three separate articles from the New York Times.

The Times later conducted its own analysis using the same ruse as the AP, reporting that fully vaccinated people were only 0.1% to 5% of Covid-19 hospitalizations across 40 states since vaccinations began. Buried near the end of the story, the Times revealed that it calculated these rates by lumping C-19 patients “with unknown vaccination status” into the “data for individuals who were not fully vaccinated.”

One week later, the Times began walking back those claims. On August 17, it alleged that reports from seven states with “the most detailed data” indicate that “breakthrough infections accounted for 12 percent to 24 percent of Covid-related hospitalizations.”

Despite those larger figures—which are still far removed from reality—the Times did not correct any of its earlier articles touting figures of 1% to 3% accompanied by quotes like this:

“The takeaway message remains, if you’re vaccinated, you are protected,” said Dr. Celine Gounder, an infectious disease specialist at Bellevue Hospital Center in New York. “You are not going to end up with severe disease, hospitalization or death.”

Implications

The most glaring lesson from this affair is that people entrusted to protect and inform the public are untrustworthy. Government officials with prestigious credentials and prominent media outlets repeatedly misreported the facts of this simple matter with life-or-death consequences. Thus, it is crucial to learn and apply proven methods to sort out the claims that surround important issues.

Secondly, Covid-19 still poses a considerable risk to some fully vaccinated people because a vaccine is only as good as each person’s immune system. Vaccines don’t directly attack virulent microbes in the same manner as antibiotics or anti-viral medicines. Instead, vaccines trigger people’s immune systems to react more quickly than usual and kill pathogens before they can do harm. If a person’s immune system is compromised by factors like poor general health, old age, obesity, immunosuppressing drugs, or lack of sleep, a vaccine will be less effective or ineffective.

Also, the currently available C-19 vaccines create an immune response to only one part of the SARS-CoV-2 virus (the “Spike” protein). This produces narrower immunity than exposure to the actual virus. In accord with this fact, a study in Israel that has not yet undergone peer review has found that the Pfizer vaccine is much less effective in protecting against the Delta variant than naturally acquired immunity.

Third, none of the above means that C-19 vaccines are ineffective. Randomized controlled trials, which are the gold standard for determining clinical efficacy, have found that the C-19 vaccines significantly reduce the odds of having a bout of severe Covid-19. The Pfizer vaccine, for example, reduced the odds of severe C-19 by 71% to 100% for people who were not immunocompromised over a period of six months. Whether or not this protection lasts and if the benefits exceed the harms will be the subjects of upcoming articles.

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darinhouston
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by darinhouston » Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:50 am

You have to go back a few years to avoid the politics of the situation, but here's what I think we're probably experiencing and will continue to experience -- I repeat, I believe the vaccines are the problem, not the unvaccinated.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tt ... -dangerous

This chicken vaccine makes its virus more dangerous
Science Jul 27, 2015 3:01 PM EDT

The deadliest strains of viruses often take care of themselves — they flare up and then die out. This is because they are so good at destroying cells and causing illness that they ultimately kill their host before they have time to spread.

But a chicken virus that represents one of the deadliest germs in history breaks from this conventional wisdom, thanks to an inadvertent effect from a vaccine. Chickens vaccinated against Marek’s disease rarely get sick. But the vaccine does not prevent them from spreading Marek’s to unvaccinated birds.

“With the hottest strains, every unvaccinated bird dies within 10 days. There is no human virus that is that hot. Ebola, for example, doesn’t kill everything in 10 days.”
In fact, rather than stop fowl from spreading the virus, the vaccine allows the disease to spread faster and longer than it normally would, a new study finds. The scientists now believe that this vaccine has helped this chicken virus become uniquely virulent. (Note: it only harms fowl). The study was published on Monday in the journal PLOS Biology.

This is the first time that this virus-boosting phenomenon, known as the imperfect vaccine hypothesis, has been observed experimentally.

The reason this is a problem for Marek’s disease is because the vaccine is “leaky.” A leaky vaccine is one that keeps a microbe from doing serious harm to its host, but doesn’t stop the disease from replicating and spreading to another individual. On the other hand, a “perfect” vaccine is one that sets up lifelong immunity that never wanes and blocks both infection and transmission.

It’s important to note childhood vaccines for polio, measles, mumps, rubella and smallpox aren’t leaky; they are considered “perfect” vaccines. As such, they are in no way in danger of falling prey to this phenomenon.

But the results do raise the questions for some human vaccines that are leaky – such as malaria, and other agricultural vaccines, such as the one being used against avian influenza, or bird flu.

Marek’s disease has plagued the chicken industry, it causes $2 billion in losses annually for fowl farmers across the globe. The virus attacks the brain, spawns tumors in the birds and comes in different varieties or “strains”, which are classified as “hot” or “cold” based on their brutality.

Andrew Read, who co-led the study, had heard about the severe effects of the hottest Marek’s strains before his lab started studying the disease about a decade ago, but even he was surprised when he finally saw the virus in action.

“With the hottest strains, every unvaccinated bird dies within 10 days. There is no human virus that is that hot. Ebola, for example, doesn’t kill everything in 10 days,” said Read, who is an evolutionary biologist at Penn State University.

In recent years, experts have wondered if leaky vaccines were to blame for the emergence of these hot strains. The 1970s introduction of the Marek’s disease immunizations for baby chicks kept the poultry industry from collapse, but people soon learned that vaccinated birds were catching “the bug” without subsequently dying. Then, over the last half century, symptoms for Marek’s worsened. Paralysis was more permanent; brains more quickly turned to mush.

“People suspected the vaccine, but the problem was that it was never shown before experimentally,” said virologist Klaus Osterrieder of the Free University of Berlin, who wasn’t involved in the study. “The field has talked about these types of experiments for a very long time, and I’m really glad to see the work finally done.”

Read’s group started their investigation by exposing vaccinated and unvaccinated Rhode Island Red chickens to one of five Marek’s disease strains that ranged from hot to cold. The hottest strains killed every unvaccinated bird within 10 days, and the team noticed that barely any virus was shed from the feathers of the chickens during that time. (The virus spreads via contaminated dust in chicken coops). In contrast, vaccination extended the lifespan of birds exposed to the hottest strains, with 80 percent living longer than two months. But the vaccinated chickens were transmitting the virus, shedding 10,000 times more virus than an unvaccinated bird.

“Previously, a hot strain was so nasty, it wiped itself out. Now, you keep its host alive with a vaccine, then it can transmit and spread in the world,” Read said. “So it’s got an evolutionary future, which it didn’t have before.”

But does this evolutionary future breed more dangerous viruses?

The close quarters of industrialized chicken farms are breeding grounds for Marek's disease. Vaccines keep the disease in check, but don't stop infections or transmission. The close quarters of industrialized chicken farms are breeding grounds for Marek’s disease. Vaccines keep the disease in check, but don’t stop infections or transmission.

This study argues yes. In a second experiment, unvaccinated and vaccinated chickens were infected with one of the five Marek’s disease strains, and then put into a second arena with a second set of unimmunized birds, known as sentinels. In particular, the team was interested in a middle-of-the-road strain called “595” and whether it would become hotter.

It did. The virus spread to sentinel birds nine days faster if it came from a vaccinated chicken versus an unvaccinated one. In addition, sentinels died faster when exposed to vaccinated chickens versus unvaccinated chickens.

“One way to look at that experiment is that shows vaccinating birds kills unvaccinated birds. The vaccination of one group of birds leads to the transmission of a virus so hot that it kills the other birds, said Read said. “If you vaccinate the mothers, the same thing happens. The offspring are protected by the maternal antibodies of the mother and that allows the virus in the chicks to transmit before they kill the host. So they transmit and kill the other individuals.”

This trend persisted when the team tried the experiment in a setting meant to simulate a commercial chicken farm.

“At the moment, the vaccines are working well enough, and you can vaccinate every bird,” Read said. “There are 20 billion birds on the planet at any time; the vast majority are Marek’s vaccinated.”

However, both Read and Osterrieder worry about what might happen if Marek’s continues to change or if its vaccines were to fail.

“If the virus continues to evolve, then it could be pretty devastating for the chicken industry, which is suffering quite a bit right now in the U.S. with the influenza virus,” Osterrieder said.

Like Marek’s vaccines, vaccines for avian influenza are leaky. For this reason, they’re banned from agricultural use in the U.S. and Europe. When bird flu breaks out in these western chicken populations, farmers must cull their herds. However, Southeast Asia uses these leaky vaccines, raising the possibility for virus evolution akin to what’s happened with Marek’s disease.

“In those situations, they’re creating the conditions where super hot avian influenza could emerge,” Read said. “Then the issues become what does that mean when it spills over into other flocks, into wildlife or into humans. Avian flu is the setting to watch for evolutionary problems down the line.”

Bird flu isn’t alone. The world’s first vaccine for malaria, which was recently approved by European Medicines Agency, is also leaky. Vaccines for HPV and whooping cough can leak too; however it is unknown if this scenario creates more dangerous viruses for each of these diseases.

“Our concern here, primarily and foremost, is whether this is going to happen with any of the vaccines that we give to people,” said molecular biology James Bull of the University of Texas Austin, who specializes in the evolution of viruses and bacteria. “But there is a lot we don’t know about how the scenario with Marek’s could apply to newer human vaccines.”

To test the imperfect vaccine hypothesis in humans, you would need monitor the vaccine response for either a large or isolated population for a long time. Doing this would allow a researcher to gauge how the vaccine interacts with the virus and if that relationship is evolving. Does the vaccine merely reduce symptoms, or does it also keep patients from getting infected and transmitting the virus?

Clinical trials for Ebola might be an arena for keeping an eye on this trend.

“It’s important that we pay close attention to the Ebola vaccine in the ongoing trials. We want to know if a person who has been vaccinated and comes in contact with Ebola, whether there is any virus replication in that person and whether that means there could be onward transmission,” Read said. “If those are leaky in humans, it would be potentially very disadvantageous as it could help establish an endemic.”

However, in the end, Read said, leakiness isn’t a strike against these vaccines, but more motivation to conduct surveillance of their effects after they exit clinical trials and enter the broader population. Take Marek’s disease for example.

“Even if this evolution happens, you don’t want to be an unvaccinated chicken,” Read said. “Food chain security and everything rests on vaccines. They are the most successful and cheapest public health interventions that we’ve ever had. We just need to consider the evolutionary consequences of these ones with leaky transmission.”

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Homer
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by Homer » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:38 pm

Darin,

I'm home recovering from my latest surgery for complications from previous surgery and covid-19. Covid -19 cough is good at producing hernias. I had four repaired through one 5" incision and one 6 1/4" incision.

During a visit with hematology prior to surgery I was informed that nationwide the recent Covid cases that result in hospitalization and death were composed 90% of unvaccinated patients. My surgery was done at the large Oregon Health Science University hospital in Portland and after my surgery my nurse said that their largest number of Covid patients yet occurred in September. Of all cases 97% were unvaccinated. How much more does a person need to know?

I noted the conclusion in a link you posted recently, did you notice it?:
Put simply, the AP’s statistics are meaningless because they are based on materially incomplete data. That was evident from the outset from a close look at the AP’s methodology, and it is now undeniable given the CDC study and UK data detailed above. Again, these indicate that fully vaccinated people comprise about 50% of all Covid-19 hospitalizations and deaths, not 1% as reported by the AP.

Third, none of the above means that C-19 vaccines are ineffective. Randomized controlled trials, which are the gold standard for determining clinical efficacy, have found that the C-19 vaccines significantly reduce the odds of having a bout of severe Covid-19. The Pfizer vaccine, for example, reduced the odds of severe C-19 by 71% to 100% for people who were not immunocompromised over a period of six months. Whether or not this protection lasts and if the benefits exceed the harms will be the subjects of upcoming articles.
Just last night I heard a prominent Christian televangelist (if he can be called that) ranting against the Covid vaccine. A sickening witness for the cause of Christ.

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darinhouston
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by darinhouston » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:46 pm

Homer wrote:Darin,

I'm home recovering from my latest surgery for complications from previous surgery and covid-19. Covid -19 cough is good at producing hernias. I had four repaired through one 5" incision and one 6 1/4" incision.

During a visit with hematology prior to surgery I was informed that nationwide the recent Covid cases that result in hospitalization and death were composed 90% of unvaccinated patients. My surgery was done at the large Oregon Health Science University hospital in Portland and after my surgery my nurse said that their largest number of Covid patients yet occurred in September. Of all cases 97% were unvaccinated. How much more does a person need to know?

I noted the conclusion in a link you posted recently, did you notice it?:
Put simply, the AP’s statistics are meaningless because they are based on materially incomplete data. That was evident from the outset from a close look at the AP’s methodology, and it is now undeniable given the CDC study and UK data detailed above. Again, these indicate that fully vaccinated people comprise about 50% of all Covid-19 hospitalizations and deaths, not 1% as reported by the AP.

Third, none of the above means that C-19 vaccines are ineffective. Randomized controlled trials, which are the gold standard for determining clinical efficacy, have found that the C-19 vaccines significantly reduce the odds of having a bout of severe Covid-19. The Pfizer vaccine, for example, reduced the odds of severe C-19 by 71% to 100% for people who were not immunocompromised over a period of six months. Whether or not this protection lasts and if the benefits exceed the harms will be the subjects of upcoming articles.
Just last night I heard a prominent Christian televangelist (if he can be called that) ranting against the Covid vaccine. A sickening witness for the cause of Christ.
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Hope you recover well.

You might appreciate this lecture to the Association. Of American Physicians and Surgeons.

https://rumble.com/vnbv86-winning-the-w ... -unte.html

I simply don’t believe what they’re saying about patient vaccine status and neither do these professionals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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darinhouston
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by darinhouston » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:10 pm

And this amazing letter from a frontline ICU physician.

https://www.sirillp.com/wp-content/uplo ... ia-Lee.pdf

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backwoodsman
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by backwoodsman » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:45 pm

Homer wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:38 pm
Of all cases 97% were unvaccinated. How much more does a person need to know?
How much more does a person need to know? That's a great question, and I'm glad you asked. For starters, you need to know what they mean by "unvaccinated." Here's the definition of "fully vaccinated" from OHSU's website, which you can go read for yourself here:
https://www.ohsu.edu/health/frequently- ... d-vaccines

-----
Has the definition of “fully vaccinated” changed?

No. For people who do not have impaired immune systems, being fully vaccinated means it has been at least two weeks since:

A second dose of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine
One dose of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine
-----

Anything else is called "unvaccinated." At least one other major hospital's website that I've seen is very explicit about that, and of course they're all using the same definition to get "unvaccinated" percentages in the 90's. (That hospital is saying 98% of their Covid patients are "unvaccinated.") And of course they know very well that when you hear "unvaccinated" you think "no shots at all," and they know very well that they're giving most people a false impression.

Just to make sure it's crystal clear: If someone has all the shots (one or two, depending on the vaccine), and is admitted on day 13 after the last shot, they're called unvaccinated, same as someone who has had no shots. If you look at the numbers from other countries where the numbers are a bit more honest (Britain and Israel come to mind), it's obvious that at least half of those patients US hospitals are calling unvaccinated are in fact partially or fully vaccinated; and it's obvious that the "Covid" they're being hospitalized for is in fact a result of the vaccine. And that's not even taking into account the extremely high incidence of serious vaccine reactions and deaths that Darin has highlighted, that they're not telling you about.

Homer, you've several times said some very uncharitable, very ungracious things about Christians who won't get the vaccine. Now you know those unchristlike opinions are based on lies and deliberate misrepresentations of the data. And of course, if you have any doubt, you can go do a bit of your own research, same as anyone else on the planet with an internet connection. There really is no excuse for a Christian to allow himself to think such evil things about his brothers as you've repeatedly stated about us.

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darinhouston
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by darinhouston » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:28 pm

And is the vaccine actually making things worse?

https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz ... ntal-shots

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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:00 pm

The Indian province of Uttar Pradesh, is virtually free of Covid-19. They have over 220 million people, and they attribute their success to the government approving the use of Ivermectin, which our so-called health experts say is potentially dangerous.

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darinhouston
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by darinhouston » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:31 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:28 pm
And is the vaccine actually making things worse?

https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz ... ntal-shots
One thing that makes this data so interesting is that it is the government's own medicare data - data which is not as political as most of the reporting we've seen and for which it is a felony to falsify or mislead.

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