Hi Joe,
Yes, I was one of the family members who became a believer and I suspect that it had something to do with the family friend's 35 years of faithful prayer. My then 19-year-old son's youth group also prayed for me for a month prior to my salvation experience, which took place during my first visit to their church. I'm originally from a non-religious Jewish family, so it took a powerful move of God for me to become a born-again, Spirit-filled Christian!
I suppose I'll never know for certain what role prayer played in my salvation, but my sense is that it made a difference.
Blessings,
Lin
Intercessory Prayer
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_Anonymous
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Hi Joe,
I have been traveling and otherwise kept busy so as to be prevented from immediately answering the two last posts that you directed to me. I am glad that Lin jumped in to keep the conversation going in my absence. I will answer the first post in this one and your last communication in a separate piece.
In answer to your first question: No, I don't have a special computer program to help me produce text (I don’t even have a Bible-search program on my computer!)—nor am I really a fast typist. I do spend a lot of my time writing these answers, but most of the time is consumed, not in thinking of what to say, but in the manual activity of hitting the right keys on the keyboard! If I could just hook-up a USB cable to my forehead and download the answer without typing, I would have more free time than I would know what to do with!
Answer to your second question: No, I don't see instantaneous answers to many of my prayers—and, in some cases, I never see the answer I was looking for at all. I have seen remarkable answers to many prayers—sometimes immediately, and sometimes after long praying.
It probably won’t surprise you to learn that, even though some prayers are not answered as I would wish, I don't see this as a defect in the statement in 1 John 5:16. I have found that the biblical writers (probably in the interest of brevity) tend to condense a truth or a promise into a single sentence, presenting only one small piece of a much larger subject as if it were the whole. In such instances, I think that the authors expected their readers to be familiar with the other aspects of the subject expressed elsewhere in their writings, or in the general teaching of the church and scripture.
This is especially true of the scriptural statements about the present subject (prayer). Taken in isolation, what would sound more unconditional and absolute than this promise: “Ask and it shall be given to you…for everyone who asks receives” (Matt.7:7-8)?
Yet, taking the entire teaching of scripture on this topic, we would have to conclude that prayers, in order be guaranteed an answer, must meet a number of conditions:
a) prayer must be offered by a child of God (Matt.6:9/7:9—11)
b) prayer must be prayed by one who has repented of known sin (Ps.66:18/John 9:31)
c) prayer must be presented to God in Jesus’ name (John 16:23)
d) prayer must be accompanied by unwavering faith (Mark 11:23/James 1:6-7)
e) prayer must accord with the general or specific will of God (1 John 5:14-15)
f) prayer must not be offered with impure motives (James 4:3)
g) prayer must be persisted in (Luke 18:1-8/1 Thes.5:17)—apparently to overcome the resistance the devil throws up to prevent it from being answered (Dan.10).
h) sometimes there may need to be more than one person praying in agreement (Matt.18:19)
I think, when all of these factors are present, then we have “normative” prayer, and can expect God to answer and grant our petitions. What we actually find in scripture are scattered statements mentioning only one or another of these conditions in a given place, spoken as if the single condition mentioned was all that prayer requires. Knowledge of the other factors is taken for granted.
Another thing the biblical writers often do (and John frequently does in this epistle) is to state a large principle as a generality or an absolute, even when there clearly are implied exceptions. A classic example is where John says that true Christians don’t sin (e.g., 6-9/ 5:18). This point is also made in 1 Peter 4:1-4, where Peter speaks of the Christian as suffering as a result of his old friends not understanding and resenting him, because he, unlike they, has “ceased from sin.”
This is quite true, in general. Genuine Christians make a habit of avoiding and resisting sin, and the result is that sin is not the common or dominant pattern in their lives as it once was, and as it is in the lives of unbelievers. But elsewhere, John makes it clear that Christians sometimes do sin (1 John 1:8-10/2:1).
When we come to 1 John 5:16, we have a general promise. It is stated categorically, as if absolute and without exceptions, but it dovetails with the rest of the teaching of scripture on prayer, assuming the reader knows about the other necessary factors (faith, persistence, etc.). I suspect that John, too, must have known the experience of praying for someone who never subsequently came to Christ, and that he was well aware of such exceptions to the general rule.
I have seen people brought to repentance through my prayers and the prayers of others—and there are others for whom I am still praying. The general promise of 1 John 5:16 encourages me that it is God’s desire to reward prayers that are offered for the salvation of souls. If the particular person I am praying for never comes to Christ, I can easily imagine that the fault may lie in my deficiency of faith, in my lack of persistence, or in some other factor. I also am convinced that, after God has done His best, some human wills may resist Him still.
There are plenty of unanswered mysteries about the working (and not working) of prayer. But I am comfortable doing the thing that we are instructed to do, with a childlike faith and resignation of spirit, and leaving it to God to understand why the results turned out the way they did.
I have been traveling and otherwise kept busy so as to be prevented from immediately answering the two last posts that you directed to me. I am glad that Lin jumped in to keep the conversation going in my absence. I will answer the first post in this one and your last communication in a separate piece.
In answer to your first question: No, I don't have a special computer program to help me produce text (I don’t even have a Bible-search program on my computer!)—nor am I really a fast typist. I do spend a lot of my time writing these answers, but most of the time is consumed, not in thinking of what to say, but in the manual activity of hitting the right keys on the keyboard! If I could just hook-up a USB cable to my forehead and download the answer without typing, I would have more free time than I would know what to do with!
Answer to your second question: No, I don't see instantaneous answers to many of my prayers—and, in some cases, I never see the answer I was looking for at all. I have seen remarkable answers to many prayers—sometimes immediately, and sometimes after long praying.
It probably won’t surprise you to learn that, even though some prayers are not answered as I would wish, I don't see this as a defect in the statement in 1 John 5:16. I have found that the biblical writers (probably in the interest of brevity) tend to condense a truth or a promise into a single sentence, presenting only one small piece of a much larger subject as if it were the whole. In such instances, I think that the authors expected their readers to be familiar with the other aspects of the subject expressed elsewhere in their writings, or in the general teaching of the church and scripture.
This is especially true of the scriptural statements about the present subject (prayer). Taken in isolation, what would sound more unconditional and absolute than this promise: “Ask and it shall be given to you…for everyone who asks receives” (Matt.7:7-8)?
Yet, taking the entire teaching of scripture on this topic, we would have to conclude that prayers, in order be guaranteed an answer, must meet a number of conditions:
a) prayer must be offered by a child of God (Matt.6:9/7:9—11)
b) prayer must be prayed by one who has repented of known sin (Ps.66:18/John 9:31)
c) prayer must be presented to God in Jesus’ name (John 16:23)
d) prayer must be accompanied by unwavering faith (Mark 11:23/James 1:6-7)
e) prayer must accord with the general or specific will of God (1 John 5:14-15)
f) prayer must not be offered with impure motives (James 4:3)
g) prayer must be persisted in (Luke 18:1-8/1 Thes.5:17)—apparently to overcome the resistance the devil throws up to prevent it from being answered (Dan.10).
h) sometimes there may need to be more than one person praying in agreement (Matt.18:19)
I think, when all of these factors are present, then we have “normative” prayer, and can expect God to answer and grant our petitions. What we actually find in scripture are scattered statements mentioning only one or another of these conditions in a given place, spoken as if the single condition mentioned was all that prayer requires. Knowledge of the other factors is taken for granted.
Another thing the biblical writers often do (and John frequently does in this epistle) is to state a large principle as a generality or an absolute, even when there clearly are implied exceptions. A classic example is where John says that true Christians don’t sin (e.g., 6-9/ 5:18). This point is also made in 1 Peter 4:1-4, where Peter speaks of the Christian as suffering as a result of his old friends not understanding and resenting him, because he, unlike they, has “ceased from sin.”
This is quite true, in general. Genuine Christians make a habit of avoiding and resisting sin, and the result is that sin is not the common or dominant pattern in their lives as it once was, and as it is in the lives of unbelievers. But elsewhere, John makes it clear that Christians sometimes do sin (1 John 1:8-10/2:1).
When we come to 1 John 5:16, we have a general promise. It is stated categorically, as if absolute and without exceptions, but it dovetails with the rest of the teaching of scripture on prayer, assuming the reader knows about the other necessary factors (faith, persistence, etc.). I suspect that John, too, must have known the experience of praying for someone who never subsequently came to Christ, and that he was well aware of such exceptions to the general rule.
I have seen people brought to repentance through my prayers and the prayers of others—and there are others for whom I am still praying. The general promise of 1 John 5:16 encourages me that it is God’s desire to reward prayers that are offered for the salvation of souls. If the particular person I am praying for never comes to Christ, I can easily imagine that the fault may lie in my deficiency of faith, in my lack of persistence, or in some other factor. I also am convinced that, after God has done His best, some human wills may resist Him still.
There are plenty of unanswered mysteries about the working (and not working) of prayer. But I am comfortable doing the thing that we are instructed to do, with a childlike faith and resignation of spirit, and leaving it to God to understand why the results turned out the way they did.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Hi Joe,
In your most recent post addressed to me, you wondered about two of the petitions in Jesus’ prayer in John 17:
Jesus prayed: "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word ..." You asked: “Could He not have asked for all mankind rather than just ‘those also who believe’? If Jesus did not pray unbelievers into the Kingdom, how can we?”
I don’t think we can know that Jesus did not pray unbelievers into the Kingdom. That is not what He is referring to here. I believe that He is saying, “These petitions I am here praying (i.e., for unity, protection and sanctification) have all believers of all ages in view, but not the unbelievers. I am not requesting these blessings for those who oppose my people.” This prayer was not about people getting saved, but about saved people being preserved and brought to maturity.
You also wondered about the fulfillment of His additional request: "...that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."
I have always seen this as something to be fulfilled in the culmination of the age, and I fully expect this prayer of Christ to be answered. This unity is something that Paul says we look forward to along with ultimate perfection of maturity (Eph.4:13).
On the other hand, in some measure, this unity could already be said to be true of all of His true followers (1 John 2:8). They are one in the Spirit and in the love of Christ. Not everyone that claims to be a Christian is one, but Jesus said "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:35). This gives a fair gauge for recognizing true disciples and pretenders.
Historically, the love of true Christians for one another has indeed been a potent testimony to the world, and has been the cause of many turning to Christ (Acts 2:44-47). It is tragic that Satan has sown tares among the wheat, resulting in people who only profess to be Christians causing division in the visible church, and soiling the testimony for which Christ prayed. But true Christians love each other, and are thus unified, despite these institutional divisions.
On another point you raised, does the Bible teach the sovereignty of God in such a way as to exclude the need for human participation in order for Him to accomplish certain objectives? That is not my impression. Paul said, “I planted, and Apollos watered, but God gave the increase…we are laborers together with God” (1 Cor.3:6, 9). This speaks of the planting of the church in Corinth, and the principle would seem to extend to the whole program of world evangelization. Only the sovereign God can save souls, but where there is no man sowing, and no man watering, there is nothing for God to increase. What is true of our cooperation and participation with God through our labors is equally true of our participation through prayer.
I am not unaware of the frustration you express about so many prayers going unanswered. Many Christians have known the same frustration. But the case is similar with many missionaries (e.g., Adoniram Judson), who sowed and watered for many years without seeing God give any increase at all. Such missionaries felt that their duty was to obey God’s commands, rather than to challenge their validity or wisdom, and that, after they had done all that He commanded, it was His problem to decide what to do with their investment.
In prayer, as in all Christian work, we must not be weary in well doing, for in due time we shall reap, if we do not faint (Gal.6:9). Jesus taught that men “ought always to pray, and not to faint” (Luke 18:1). Delayed answers may just be God's chosen method of testing and stretching our faith.
In your most recent post addressed to me, you wondered about two of the petitions in Jesus’ prayer in John 17:
Jesus prayed: "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word ..." You asked: “Could He not have asked for all mankind rather than just ‘those also who believe’? If Jesus did not pray unbelievers into the Kingdom, how can we?”
I don’t think we can know that Jesus did not pray unbelievers into the Kingdom. That is not what He is referring to here. I believe that He is saying, “These petitions I am here praying (i.e., for unity, protection and sanctification) have all believers of all ages in view, but not the unbelievers. I am not requesting these blessings for those who oppose my people.” This prayer was not about people getting saved, but about saved people being preserved and brought to maturity.
You also wondered about the fulfillment of His additional request: "...that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."
I have always seen this as something to be fulfilled in the culmination of the age, and I fully expect this prayer of Christ to be answered. This unity is something that Paul says we look forward to along with ultimate perfection of maturity (Eph.4:13).
On the other hand, in some measure, this unity could already be said to be true of all of His true followers (1 John 2:8). They are one in the Spirit and in the love of Christ. Not everyone that claims to be a Christian is one, but Jesus said "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:35). This gives a fair gauge for recognizing true disciples and pretenders.
Historically, the love of true Christians for one another has indeed been a potent testimony to the world, and has been the cause of many turning to Christ (Acts 2:44-47). It is tragic that Satan has sown tares among the wheat, resulting in people who only profess to be Christians causing division in the visible church, and soiling the testimony for which Christ prayed. But true Christians love each other, and are thus unified, despite these institutional divisions.
On another point you raised, does the Bible teach the sovereignty of God in such a way as to exclude the need for human participation in order for Him to accomplish certain objectives? That is not my impression. Paul said, “I planted, and Apollos watered, but God gave the increase…we are laborers together with God” (1 Cor.3:6, 9). This speaks of the planting of the church in Corinth, and the principle would seem to extend to the whole program of world evangelization. Only the sovereign God can save souls, but where there is no man sowing, and no man watering, there is nothing for God to increase. What is true of our cooperation and participation with God through our labors is equally true of our participation through prayer.
I am not unaware of the frustration you express about so many prayers going unanswered. Many Christians have known the same frustration. But the case is similar with many missionaries (e.g., Adoniram Judson), who sowed and watered for many years without seeing God give any increase at all. Such missionaries felt that their duty was to obey God’s commands, rather than to challenge their validity or wisdom, and that, after they had done all that He commanded, it was His problem to decide what to do with their investment.
In prayer, as in all Christian work, we must not be weary in well doing, for in due time we shall reap, if we do not faint (Gal.6:9). Jesus taught that men “ought always to pray, and not to faint” (Luke 18:1). Delayed answers may just be God's chosen method of testing and stretching our faith.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
intercessory prayer
Steve,
Have you ever tried any of the voice-to-text programs? I can't put my finger on one specific vendor just now, but I'll bet John Kent would know several. They may be affordable and would free up some time for you to learn Swahili or play the Zither.
And thanks for the generous answers to my confused questions. But at the risk of being dogmatically specific, I'd like to go back to something that I perhaps didn't ask clearly enough.
You said, in reference to my question about 1 John 5:16, >No, I don't see instantaneous answers to many of my prayers—and, in some cases, I never see the answer I was looking for at all.< What I was really asking for were your thoughts concerning the assurance that your request has indeed been granted. That is, a feeling of belief in the outcome, regardless of appearance. John says, "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death." When you ask for restoration of the person about whom you are praying, do you think, as John states, God will (without doubt) give him life? For example: Brother X is in a condition described by John (committing a sin not leading to death)... you (being "anyone") pray (ask) for him to be restored to life ... Brother X is now restored (God will ... give life). End of problem!
It would not seem necessary to wait around to verify that "life" has been restored, although if it has it should be evident. If John has accurately described a formula for restoration of a fallen brother/sister, and one has plugged into his proper place, the outcome should be a given, no?
This is probably where I get into trouble. I tend to take a verse literally, and hopefully in it's most natural understanding. It seems to me John is saying, if you ask, God will give. There doesn't seem to be any qualifiers there, nor is the situation very complicated.
Then in Matthew (18), Jesus is teaching about seeing a brother sin and how one should go through a process which may not succeed, resulting in the brother being treated as a Gentile. John says to pray him back into restoration, Jesus says you may have to ultimately treat him as a Gentile. Although these seem to be two different instructions about the same situation (a brother sinning), I'm sure they can't be ... but that's the way I read them.
Have you ever tried any of the voice-to-text programs? I can't put my finger on one specific vendor just now, but I'll bet John Kent would know several. They may be affordable and would free up some time for you to learn Swahili or play the Zither.
And thanks for the generous answers to my confused questions. But at the risk of being dogmatically specific, I'd like to go back to something that I perhaps didn't ask clearly enough.
You said, in reference to my question about 1 John 5:16, >No, I don't see instantaneous answers to many of my prayers—and, in some cases, I never see the answer I was looking for at all.< What I was really asking for were your thoughts concerning the assurance that your request has indeed been granted. That is, a feeling of belief in the outcome, regardless of appearance. John says, "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death." When you ask for restoration of the person about whom you are praying, do you think, as John states, God will (without doubt) give him life? For example: Brother X is in a condition described by John (committing a sin not leading to death)... you (being "anyone") pray (ask) for him to be restored to life ... Brother X is now restored (God will ... give life). End of problem!
It would not seem necessary to wait around to verify that "life" has been restored, although if it has it should be evident. If John has accurately described a formula for restoration of a fallen brother/sister, and one has plugged into his proper place, the outcome should be a given, no?
This is probably where I get into trouble. I tend to take a verse literally, and hopefully in it's most natural understanding. It seems to me John is saying, if you ask, God will give. There doesn't seem to be any qualifiers there, nor is the situation very complicated.
Then in Matthew (18), Jesus is teaching about seeing a brother sin and how one should go through a process which may not succeed, resulting in the brother being treated as a Gentile. John says to pray him back into restoration, Jesus says you may have to ultimately treat him as a Gentile. Although these seem to be two different instructions about the same situation (a brother sinning), I'm sure they can't be ... but that's the way I read them.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Joe Marcheski
Hi Joe,
As for the promise contained in 1 John 5:16, I do not think that the wording necessarily suggests instantaneous results—as if, when I have prayed, the life must, as a result, be automatically and invisibly conferred at that moment. I understand the promise to be that my prayers will ultimately bring the man back to life by bringing him back to God. His coming to God may be a protracted process, involving God's dealings with him over a period of time, and may sometimes involve the instrumentality of church discipline, such as that described in Matthew 18.
As I suggested earlier, I also take the promise in a general sense, rather than absolute—as I believe is appropriate with many of the "promises" of scripture. Insofar as another man's free will may come into play, the answers to certain prayers cannot, I think, be regarded as absolutely guaranteed. The famous promise about children not departing from the right way in which they were trained (Prov.22:6) and the affirmation that a "soft answer" will "turn away" another person's wrath (Prov.15:1) would be other examples of this principle.
As for the promise contained in 1 John 5:16, I do not think that the wording necessarily suggests instantaneous results—as if, when I have prayed, the life must, as a result, be automatically and invisibly conferred at that moment. I understand the promise to be that my prayers will ultimately bring the man back to life by bringing him back to God. His coming to God may be a protracted process, involving God's dealings with him over a period of time, and may sometimes involve the instrumentality of church discipline, such as that described in Matthew 18.
As I suggested earlier, I also take the promise in a general sense, rather than absolute—as I believe is appropriate with many of the "promises" of scripture. Insofar as another man's free will may come into play, the answers to certain prayers cannot, I think, be regarded as absolutely guaranteed. The famous promise about children not departing from the right way in which they were trained (Prov.22:6) and the affirmation that a "soft answer" will "turn away" another person's wrath (Prov.15:1) would be other examples of this principle.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Hi Joe,
I was just reading another biography of George Mueller (I have read several over the years). If you would like to have your confidence in the effectualness of prayer increased, reading his life will do the job!
He kept thorough journals of his prayer life and God's provision. Near the end of his life, he was able to document over 30,000 instances when his specific prayers were answered on the very day that he prayed them.
However, he also discussed reasons why prayers are not answered, and made many of the points that I included in an earlier post.
Most relevant to your concerns, however, was his testimony concerning answered prayer for the conversion of sinners. He had many specific unbelievers for whom he prayed daily—often for many years. These all got converted, though he often had to pray years or decades for them on a daily basis. Let me lift a few sentences out of a sermon he gave on the subject:
"During the first six weeks of 1866 I heard of the conversion of six persons for whom I had been praying for a long time. For one I had been praying between two and three years; for another between three and four years; for another above seven years; for the fourth above ten years; for the fifth about fifteen years, and for the sixth above twenty years...
"In one instance my faith has been tried even more than this. In November 1844, I began to pray for the conversion of five individuals. I prayed every day without a single intermission...Eighteen months elapsed before the first of the five was converted...Five years elapsed, and then the second was converted...six years more passed before the third was converted...Next November it will be thirty-six years since I began to pray for [the remaining two]".
The biographer mentions that the remaining two were subsequently converted—one before Mueller's death, and the other a few years after he died.
I hope this may encourage you in your intercessory prayer for your lost friends and loved ones.
I was just reading another biography of George Mueller (I have read several over the years). If you would like to have your confidence in the effectualness of prayer increased, reading his life will do the job!
He kept thorough journals of his prayer life and God's provision. Near the end of his life, he was able to document over 30,000 instances when his specific prayers were answered on the very day that he prayed them.
However, he also discussed reasons why prayers are not answered, and made many of the points that I included in an earlier post.
Most relevant to your concerns, however, was his testimony concerning answered prayer for the conversion of sinners. He had many specific unbelievers for whom he prayed daily—often for many years. These all got converted, though he often had to pray years or decades for them on a daily basis. Let me lift a few sentences out of a sermon he gave on the subject:
"During the first six weeks of 1866 I heard of the conversion of six persons for whom I had been praying for a long time. For one I had been praying between two and three years; for another between three and four years; for another above seven years; for the fourth above ten years; for the fifth about fifteen years, and for the sixth above twenty years...
"In one instance my faith has been tried even more than this. In November 1844, I began to pray for the conversion of five individuals. I prayed every day without a single intermission...Eighteen months elapsed before the first of the five was converted...Five years elapsed, and then the second was converted...six years more passed before the third was converted...Next November it will be thirty-six years since I began to pray for [the remaining two]".
The biographer mentions that the remaining two were subsequently converted—one before Mueller's death, and the other a few years after he died.
I hope this may encourage you in your intercessory prayer for your lost friends and loved ones.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Intercessory prayer
Steve,
Sorry to be so long in responding to your last reply. I'm trying to install Windows XP in a dual boot configuration on my computer and have a tiger by the tail.
I guess when I have you repeating yourself, I should realize that either I can't comprehend your explanations or we have different understandings of what the Scriptures are saying. I know your position regarding scriptural inerrancy, and you may be right. I just have a difficult time with being peaceful about things that my brand of logic cannot reconcile.
You have the gift of being able to see the connection between what seems to be contradictory passages, whereas I do not. Perhaps it's a matter of the amount of faith one has in the authority of Scripture. I do believe scripture is inspired and necessary for having an understanding of who God is and how He relates to mankind, but I cannot deny the fact that some commonly held beliefs do not resonate with me. I have read of Mueller's life and it is truly amazing, much like that of Rees Howells ["Rees Howells: Intercessor", by Norman Grubb]. I'm sure they are true .... but somehow they don't solve my problem. Maybe some day it will all fall into place.
You have been kind enough to patiently express your knowledge of this subject, and I think it's time for me to give you a rest. Thanks for your willingness to share!
Sorry to be so long in responding to your last reply. I'm trying to install Windows XP in a dual boot configuration on my computer and have a tiger by the tail.
I guess when I have you repeating yourself, I should realize that either I can't comprehend your explanations or we have different understandings of what the Scriptures are saying. I know your position regarding scriptural inerrancy, and you may be right. I just have a difficult time with being peaceful about things that my brand of logic cannot reconcile.
You have the gift of being able to see the connection between what seems to be contradictory passages, whereas I do not. Perhaps it's a matter of the amount of faith one has in the authority of Scripture. I do believe scripture is inspired and necessary for having an understanding of who God is and how He relates to mankind, but I cannot deny the fact that some commonly held beliefs do not resonate with me. I have read of Mueller's life and it is truly amazing, much like that of Rees Howells ["Rees Howells: Intercessor", by Norman Grubb]. I'm sure they are true .... but somehow they don't solve my problem. Maybe some day it will all fall into place.
You have been kind enough to patiently express your knowledge of this subject, and I think it's time for me to give you a rest. Thanks for your willingness to share!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Joe Marcheski