What does Jesus mean?

[Guest]

Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Ha-le-lu-jah!

[_Rick_C]

Paidion,

I agree with a lot of what you posted but want to correct one thing:

Law of Moses: Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.

When Jesus said "You have heard it said...but I say" he is critiquing popular teachings of the rabbis. In this case he speaking against Essene doctrine, not Moses or the OT. Here's the text source of the doctrine Jesus was rebutting.

Col. 1

A text belonging to [the Instructor, who is to teach the Ho]ly Ones how to live according to the book of the Yahad's Rule. He is to teach them to seek God with all their heart and with all their soul, to do that which is good and upright before Him, just as He commanded through Moses and all His servants the prophets. He is to teach them to love everything He chose and to hate everything He rejected, to distance themselves from all evil and to hold fast to all good deeds; to practice truth, justice, and righteousness in the land, and to walk no longer in a guilty, willful heart and lustful desires, wherein they did every evil thing. He is to induct all who volunteer to live by the laws of God into the Covenant of Mercy, so as to be joined to God's society and walk faultless before Him, according to all that has been revealed for the times appointed them. He is to teach them both to love all the Children of Light--each commensurate with his rightful place in the council of God--and to hate all the Children of Darkness, each commensurate with his guilt stand the vengeance due him from God (underline, mine)

There are several other examples of "hate your enemy" in the Scrolls. Also, Jesus probably critiques Essenes beliefs of some kind on almost every page of the Gospels. Just wanted to point this out, thanks.

[Guest]

Nice explanation Paidion. 8)

[Guest]

Thanks, to all. And thanks to Rick for referring that particular "it was said" to the teachings of the Essenes. I know I couldn't find "hate your enemy" in the OT, but nevertheless I thought Moses taught it, because Jesus said, "You have heard it was said" just as he did for the parts which were from the Law of Moses.

[Guest]

Paidion, I also see verse 19 the way you do. From the context, it certainly seems like Jesus is addressing the laws he is about to lay down and not the law of Moses. Verses 24-27 sort of bookend his whole teaching, so Christ tells us to obey his commands in verse 19, then gives his commands, and afterward (in 24-27) he tells us to obey them a final time. To me, this is the most natural way to view his sermon, though I find that very few people agree with me.

[_Rick_C]

Thanks, to all. And thanks to Rick for referring that particular "it was said" to the teachings of the Essenes. I know I couldn't find "hate your enemy" in the OT, but nevertheless I thought Moses taught it, because Jesus said, "You have heard it was said" just as he did for the parts which were from the Law of Moses.

You're welcome, Don. I used to have all kinds of DSS stuff in Word docs...but my computer crashed and I lost them. But I found these:

The Dead Sea Scrolls & Jesus’ Beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount
URL: http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/8februar.htm

excerpts

Jesus, in Yadin’s view, was not only anti-Essene, but anti-Pharisaic as well. One reason is his showing a possible anti-Essene reference in the Sermon on the Mount. There Jesus noted the crowd that it had been said to hate your enemies. (Matt 5:43-44). The question is, who said so? Yadin, quoting the Austrian scholar Kurt Schubert indicates who is identified. "There is no such doctrine in any Jewish writing. But as Schubert has shown, in one of the basic texts of the Qumran community called the Manual of Discipline, new members of the sect swear an oath of allegiance to love the Sons of Light (that is, the members of the Essene community) and to hate for all eternity the Sons of Darkness. The reference in the Sermon on the Mount to those who advise hating your enemies may well be to the Essenes and would thus reflect Jesus’ own anti-Essene stance."

On another angle, E. P. Sanders has demonstrated that Jesus did not oppose the law in his Sermon on the Mount as some have supposed. "He requires a stricter code of practice…Jesus does not propose that any part of the Mosaic code should be repealed… while this section of Matthew’s Sermon on the Mount is not against the law, criticism is implicit: the law does not go far enough… this section of Matthew has often been cited as showing Jesus’ opposition to the law. But heightening the law is not opposing it, though (as we just saw) it implies a kind of criticism."

I see "it implies a kind of criticism" as Jesus' criticism of how the law was being taught--and not-being-taught-fully--in the way Jesus did. The rabbis often seemed to have "MDRs" (minimum daily requirements) in their teachings. Other than this, what Sanders wrote was essentially what you posted: Jesus' "stricter code of practice," etc. Amen!

The Dead Sea Scrolls and Christianity, by the Rev. Dr. Charles A. Gieschen
URL http://www.ctsfw.edu/online/pilgrim/5-1/gieschen.php:

A second reason these manuscripts are significant for Christians is that they give primary source evidence about the theology and practices of a group of Jews, probably Essenes, who continued to exist in the first century as Christianity began. This evidence helps us to understand the diverse teaching that existed within Judaism when Jesus, a Jew from Nazareth, began His ministry that was later continued by His apostles. Therefore, it is helpful both to compare and contrast the theology and practices of this group with that of Jesus and early Christians in order to see their common Jewish roots, as well as the distinctiveness of Christianity. For example, Jesus states in Matthew 5:43 that someone has commanded others "to hate your enemies." There is no such command in the Old Testament of the teaching of rabbis (i.e., rabbinic literature). The Rule of the Community from Qumran, however, contains several commands to "hate" the children of darkness. Although Jesus may not have specifically had these Qumran community commands in mind when He made this statement, nevertheless they give us solid historical evidence of a first-century Jewish group that issued such a command.

I'm having a hard time locating other DSS (though they're in my computer). I know that in the Temple Scroll and the War Scroll there are more details about "hating your enemies". These documents contained actual war plans against the Gentiles and were written around the early first century to middle second century BC. Jesus would have certainly been familiar with the teachings of these documents; just think of all the would-be-messiahs of the first century (a few mentioned in the NT), on through the Great War, and on to Shimon bar Koceba (aka, Simon bar Kochba) of 135AD.

Had the Jews loved their enemies as Jesus commanded...the Great War could have been prevented.

I read a blog recently that went into just how seriously bloody and ruthless the times of Jesus were. Just one thing it mentioned was how the Romans had to clamp down on the Sanhedrin in the first century BC because they were actually killing one another...

I thought you might be interested in this info, thanks again.

[Guest]

Paidion,

You wrote:

I know I couldn't find "hate your enemy" in the OT, but nevertheless I thought Moses taught it, because Jesus said, "You have heard it was said" just as he did for the parts which were from the Law of Moses.

Perhaps you could no find those exact words in the Law, but do you think it likely the Jews misunderstood their role in acting as agents of God and got the idea from such as the following?


Deuteronomy 25:17-19 (New King James Version)

17. “Remember what Amalek did to you on the way as you were coming out of Egypt, 18. how he met you on the way and attacked your rear ranks, all the stragglers at your rear, when you were tired and weary; and he did not fear God. 19. Therefore it shall be, when the LORD your God has given you rest from your enemies all around, in the land which the LORD your God is giving you to possess as an inheritance, that you will blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven. You shall not forget.

[_Rick_C]

Homer, you didn't post to me but....

Steve says some things about this in one of his lectures. He talked about how (I think it was David's enemies) were his enemies because they were God's enemies. That the wrath and judgment of God came upon them for that reason, though David was the instrument God used in judgment. Also, there are OT passages that command treating pagan strangers well.

Jesus' anti-Essene/anti-war stance was a serious correction to current Jewish attitudes. The Jews were trying to "force an earthly kingdom" through war: Their hatred of the Gentiles and plans for war to "conquer" them were not in God's heart, nor in His plans. "Not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord." And this, of course, by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant upon all nations, tongues, and tribes.

[Guest]

Thank you Paidion. You seem to have captured the thoughts of many who seem to disagree with God's Law as revealed through Moses, thereby showing that, they too, are as 'hard-hearted' as the children of Israel. Today's 'hearts' are, no doubt, similar to those of our 'fathers'. No doubt, like the Pharisees of old who assumed they were in compliance with the Law of God, so too, are today's proud nominal followers who assume they are in compliance with Jesus' commands, even though he said that if people don't believe Moses, neither will they believe Him.

When I first read your comments I was deeply saddened. As I tried to identify the source of my sadness at your response and the numerous accolades that followed, I thought, 'well, they've almost convinced themselves, and have made God's commandments of none effect! This is exactly the same thing that Jesus warned the Pharisees of doing too! You even had the chutzpah to suggest that the perfect and holy Law of God as given through Moses was somehow false and untrue. These were truly amazing comments, and they truly sadden me. I do not expect you to be affected by my sadness, but maybe you could read Psalm 119 and try to get a glimpse of David's love and respect for the Law of God, before you continue to impugn it. He was truly a man after God's own heart.

The last sentence of your post, speaking about the Law of God as given through Moses, is most inaccurate:

None of those things are part of THE TRUE LAW OF GOD.

God's Law to Moses is God's Word! His Word is true and righteous altogether! His Word is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword and is able to divide between thoughts and intents of the heart. I understand your comments about Jesus deepening the Law of God, but He in no way, disparaged it, as you have done, as somehow, imperfect or untrue!

I realize that I am not very welcome here, and after I finish my comments to you, later, Lord willing, I will be even less welcome, but that is just the way it is, I guess. I know that your views represent the majority of so-called "Christians" today, which brings the relevancy of Jesus' wonderings to my attention. When He comes back will He find faith in the earth?

I plan to find some commands, as given through Moses, and then ask you if they are still commands to be followed by us today. It would seem that, though you probably won't admit it, you would allow adultery as long as a person did it without lust in his/her heart. Or that murder should be OK, as long as anger is not residing there. Don't you see how ridiculous it seems to ignore the commandments that still define God's heart and desire for us? There is nothing wrong with the commandments of God! They are righteous and good, yet you have demeaned them, and even called them untrue!

I am still shocked by your response....and I know it shows....
sorry, but Jesus was speaking of His Father's commandments, as given through Moses when He spoke Matthew 5:19...your twist to make Him say something else notwithstanding.

Certainly, Jesus' commands are equal in importance because they are all God's commands!

If God wants me to leave....I will, but I hope that we can talk through this serious breach in understanding of God's Word.

God bless, dmatic

[Guest]

dmatic,

Paidion is certainly capable of responding for himself, but I must say I find this statement of yours to be absurd:

I plan to find some commands, as given through Moses, and then ask you if they are still commands to be followed by us today. It would seem that, though you probably won't admit it, you would allow adultery as long as a person did it without lust in his/her heart. Or that murder should be OK, as long as anger is not residing there. Don't you see how ridiculous it seems to ignore the commandments that still define God's heart and desire for us? There is nothing wrong with the commandments of God! They are righteous and good, yet you have demeaned them, and even called them untrue!

You obviously do not know much about Paidion, in particular how he consistently advocates that we must live righteously before God!