What Would You Say?

[darinhouston]

This may deserve a separate thread, and is just a thought experiment, but follow me for a minute as I play devil's advocate...

I think there is a difference between an actual physical act of adultery, which is a breach of covenant (to forsake all others & be faithful), and thoughts which are not acted on.

So, it's difficult to detach our modern views of marriage from our understanding of the biblical covenant -- the traditional vows may include such language, but (1) the marriage covenant is established by God and not by the vows; and (2) you've forsaken them in measure even by your "desire" for others haven't you?

For example, if a person felt murderous rage towards someone & fantasised about killing them, but never acted on this, one could hardly throw this person into prison.

OK, fair enough, but that's because we throw people into prison for violating man's laws -- not God's. If the covenant doesn't include the faithfulness part, then sexual immorality is essentially only a sin against God (and your own body) and not a personal wrong necessarily against the spouse. We owe God a response, but do we necessarily owe the spouse anything for having "wronged them?" God teaches us that He sees the thoughts the same as the actions, so I'm not sure He sees the difference.

As to whether I would confess these thoughts to my husband, I would hope that (if I was married), our relationship would be one of openness, loving & intimate enough to enable mutual support of this kind.
If I was doubtful about the wisdom of this, if perhaps there were difficulties in our relationship, I would seek counsel from someone spiritual & preferably who knew both of us.

I recognize it's difficult for a woman to relate to some of this, but what if you had a series of intimate lunches with a man and started baring your soul and trusting him for guidance, etc., though you stop short of sexual temptation and repent and move on. By modern standards at least, you have gone elsewhere and forsaken your husband in some respects (though you may not have even sinned against God in that situation). Do you owe your spouse the same degree of confession for this "infidelity of the heart" ?

[Suzana]

This may deserve a separate thread, and is just a thought experiment, but follow me for a minute as I play devil's advocate...

I think there is a difference between an actual physical act of adultery, which is a breach of covenant (to forsake all others & be faithful), and thoughts which are not acted on.

So, it's difficult to detach our modern views of marriage from our understanding of the biblical covenant -- the traditional vows may include such language, but (1) the marriage covenant is established by God and not by the vows; and (2) you've forsaken them in measure even by your "desire" for others haven't you?

Yes, in measure.
Personally, I would find it far easier to deal with my husband confessing lustful thoughts of which he is repenting, than the betrayal of a physical act of adultery.
And, God will still hold us accountable for our actions. It appears thoughts not translated into actions don’t necessarily count as much in some instances.
Mat 21:28-31
But what do you think? A man had two sons; and he came to the first and said, Son, go work in my vineyard today.
He answered and said, I will not. But afterwards he repented and went.
And he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir; and did not go.
Which of the two did the will of his father?

For example, if a person felt murderous rage towards someone & fantasised about killing them, but never acted on this, one could hardly throw this person into prison.

OK, fair enough, but that's because we throw people into prison for violating man's laws -- not God's. If the covenant doesn't include the faithfulness part, then sexual immorality is essentially only a sin against God (and your own body) and not a personal wrong necessarily against the spouse. We owe God a response, but do we necessarily owe the spouse anything for having "wronged them?" God teaches us that He sees the thoughts the same as the actions, so I'm not sure He sees the difference.

I don’t quite understand the bit (I’ve) underlined. Why would faithfulness not be part of the covenant?
In the OT, God requires covenant Israel to be faithful - love & serve Him only, to the exclusion of any other gods.
And
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh.

cleave2. (dictionary, Answers.com)
1. To adhere, cling, or stick fast.
2. To be faithful: cleave to one's principles.

I recognize it's difficult for a woman to relate to some of this, but what if you had a series of intimate lunches with a man and started baring your soul and trusting him for guidance, etc., though you stop short of sexual temptation and repent and move on. By modern standards at least, you have gone elsewhere and forsaken your husband in some respects (though you may not have even sinned against God in that situation). Do you owe your spouse the same degree of confession for this "infidelity of the heart" ?

If I have not even sinned against God in that situation, I don’t think I would have anything to repent of.
e.g. if it happened to be a situation of discussions/counselling with a friend only, the same as in a female confidante – (in theory; in practice I wouldn’t advise it!).

If there is any “infidelity of the heart”, then I would think as with any sin, God would be vitally concerned and owed repentance.

But if there was no physical infidelity, I still tend to think the wisdom of confession to one’s spouse would depend on the state of the marriage relationship, and would want to be guided by wise counsel & guidance by the Holy Spirit.

I may be speaking intuitively here, ("have reasons but not a lot of support from scripture"?) and realise my logic in differentiating between the two instances may be somewhat muddled ; that’s why I would seek counsel!