Question about unmarried mothers

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Paidion
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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by Paidion » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:01 pm

I just came across this thread for the first time today! I read it from beginning to end.

A fascinating story, Matt! I'm so glad everything is basically resolved, and that "this girl" and her family can relate positively, and in a healthy way, with you and your family.
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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by mattrose » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:33 pm

Paidion wrote:I just came across this thread for the first time today! I read it from beginning to end.

A fascinating story, Matt! I'm so glad everything is basically resolved, and that "this girl" and her family can relate positively, and in a healthy way, with you and your family.
Yes, all in all, it's a very good complex of relationships. I'm pretty sure I"m the only one that knows there's an internal issue for my part.

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:49 pm

Mattrose,

This is also the first time that I read your story. I see "red flags" all over your current situation. Yes, Christ in you is greater than Satan, but you are not to "put the Lord your God to the test." Matthew 4:7 This is not just one test, but it appears to be an ongoing test, at least weekly, since you see her often. I was amazed that you, of all people, would agree to perform her wedding! You still struggle with dreams?!! At some point, you need to realize that your dreams are what's in your heart. She named her daughter after you?!! You are also in her heart.

Whether you realize it or not, or whether she does, she is "competing" with your wife for your affections. You said that when she moved away, the dreams stopped. There you go, that's the solution. Separation, not you and your wife "ministering" with her and her husband. Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. It doesn't matter if she is part of your family now, that's one family member that you do not need contact with now. For the sake of your wife, your children, the church, for the sake of your Lord, get out of that situation.

Respectfully,

Dwight

P.S. I have heard of husbands who want to maintain "friendships" with previous girlfriends after they get married, and vice-versa. It only brings temptation and division in their marriage.

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by mattrose » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:04 pm

dwight92070 wrote:I see "red flags" all over your current situation.


I appreciate that your post is seemingly motivated by genuine concern, so I will take the time to address your concerns one by one.
Yes, Christ in you is greater than Satan, but you are not to "put the Lord your God to the test." Matthew 4:7. This is not just one test, but it appears to be an ongoing test, at least weekly, since you see her often.
I do not consider myself to be putting God to the test. Putting God to the test would be actively doing something that attempts to force God's hand. I'm not actively doing anything in this situation. To be more direct, putting God to the test would be repeatedly putting myself in compromising situations with this person, but I'm not doing that at all. Putting God to the test would be attempting to force God to rescue me from something of my own doing, but I'm simply frustrated by something that isn't my own doing at all :)
I was amazed that you, of all people, would agree to perform her wedding! You still struggle with dreams?!! At some point, you need to realize that your dreams are what's in your heart. She named her daughter after you?!! You are also in her heart.
I care about her. And I care about her husband. They are both dear friends to me. When they got engaged, I was happy for them. I knew they might ask me to perform the ceremony and I prayerfully considered it and it seemed like a no brainer. Why wouldn't I perform the ceremony. Saying no would have been much more awkward than it was for me to just do it!

By the way, I did not mean to suggest that she 'named her daughter' after me. I think the middle name of her daughter is a coincidence. I only mentioned it as another thing that had deepened my mind's connection to her and her kids.

I wouldn't argue that she is 'in my heart'... but so are many of my friends (both male and female). Obviously there's a more mysterious connection in her case, but there needn't be anything sinful or scary about that.
Whether you realize it or not, or whether she does, she is "competing" with your wife for your affections.


I think you misunderstood the nature of my latest posting. I was expressing a frustration, not a moral crisis. I am happily married. I am strongly committed to my wife. I was simply expressing my frustration with dreams and wondering thoughts. I believe they are very common and human problems to have. I find them frustrating but not overly alarming or crisis inducing.
You said that when she moved away, the dreams stopped. There you go, that's the solution. Separation,


I very much disagree with your mentality here. I also don't think you know what you are actually suggesting (Though that is not your fault since you don't really know all the details). I work at my home church. She goes to my home church. We married into the same family. I can't just never see her. Nor do I think running from an issue like this is always (or even usually) the best solution. Joseph ran away from Potipher's wife b/c there was a direct attempt on her part to commit adultery. I have no such intent. I think we expose ourselves as spiritual weaklings when we automatically go into 'run' mode at the first sign of trouble. For many years now God has helped me to successfully overcome this temptation. I have not consciously given it an inch. I honestly feel like a stronger Christian today b/c I have made the choice, every time these dreams/thoughts pop into my head, to remain faithful to my commitments. But you're telling me I would have been better off to wake up the morning after the first dream and move my family and ministry far far away! Sometimes we give way too much credit to the enemy.
not you and your wife "ministering" with her and her husband. Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
1 Cor. 10:12 is about people who got complacent in their spiritual lives thinking that they'd just naturally avoid the mistakes of their predecessors. By quoting it, you seem to be assuming that I think I can just naturally overcome the temptations that accompany these dreams/thoughts on my own. That is not the case. I recognize my need for God's empowering grace. In fact, I not only recognize it, I have experienced it. He has helped me to continue to be who he called me to be despite these dreams and wondering thoughts. Involuntary thoughts do not need to dictate my actions. That truth is a blow to satan.
It doesn't matter if she is part of your family now, that's one family member that you do not need contact with now. For the sake of your wife, your children, the church, for the sake of your Lord, get out of that situation.

Respectfully,
Dwight
I recognize that we might have very different experiences with our families (you and I), but what your suggesting here is almost nonsense in my circumstances. I would literally have to rip my entire family from my wife's whole side of the family! And for what? Because I couldn't trust God to give me the strength to endure some involuntary dreams and wondering thoughts? Are you really suggesting that? Your post would make more sense if I had declared that this woman and I had had a secret affair and were now trying to go on as if nothing happened. The reality is that 'nothing' is exactly what happened!

The day we flee from life because of fear over a dream or a feeling is the day Satan says 'wow, my job is really easy'
P.S. I have heard of husbands who want to maintain "friendships" with previous girlfriends after they get married, and vice-versa. It only brings temptation and division in their marriage.
I think "ONLY" is an unnecessary hyperbole here. Again, you seem to be making absolute rules based on your personal experiences/observations. Truth be told, I am still friends with all the girls I dated prior to my marriage. But my wife is probably better friends with most of them now. Our marriage is strong enough to navigate such things. I recognize you come from a different school of thought on these issues, but a question whether that school itself gets a passing grade. Holiness is not primarily found in avoidance, but by empowerment.

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:08 am

Mattrose,

I guess I did misunderstand your situation. Given your last post, it sounds like you're doing fine and have no need of anything. Just because your dreams and wandering thoughts have frustrated you for 7 or more years - apparently you've got it all taken care of. So just disregard everything I said, especially since my school of thought doesn't get a passing grade.

Dwight

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by mattrose » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:39 am

I was trying to dialogue with you, not dismiss you. I disagreed with your approach to my situation, so I tried to explain why and give you additional information. Perhaps my tone came across as condescending. That wasn't my intent. I appreciate your willingness to give me feedback.

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by Paidion » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:45 pm

Thank you, Matt, for sharing this whole story, and the way in which the enabling grace of God gave you victory. I am truly amazed at your fearlessness in sharing such personal matters publicly, and I am positively impressed by your openness. I admire the gracious way in which you replied to Dwight; I know you did it by the grace of God, but I admire it nonetheless.

If I had received such a message from Dwight (though I'm sure he meant well), I may have allowed my old former self to answer him rudely instead, instead of in the loving, gracious way in which you replied.

So thanks again, Matt, for displaying your gracious, Christ-like attitude throughout the entire thread. It's a powerful example to us all.

P.S. I don't think Dwight understood your "school of thought" comment. I am sure you meant that the "school of thought" that avoids possible problems or runs from them, doesn't get a passing grade, whereas the "school" that faces them and overcomes them, by the enabling grace of God, surpasses the weaknesses of the other "school."
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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by Paidion » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:55 pm

By the way, one thing Dwight is right about is that it is "wandering thoughts" not "wondering thoughts."
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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by mattrose » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:58 pm

Paidion wrote:By the way, one thing Dwight is right about is that it is "wandering thoughts" not "wondering thoughts."
Yes, I make that spelling mistake often!

Which is strange since I really enjoy a sermon from John Wesley titled "Wandering Thoughts"

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:36 pm

I wouldn't argue that she is 'in my heart'... but so are many of my friends (both male and female). Obviously there's a more mysterious connection in her case, but there needn't be anything sinful or scary about that.

Obviously, she is "in your heart" in a different way than they are. Otherwise, you would be dreaming about them on a regular basis too.
Whether you realize it or not, or whether she does, she is "competing" with your wife for your affections.


I think you misunderstood the nature of my latest posting. I was expressing a frustration, not a moral crisis. I am happily married. I am strongly committed to my wife. I was simply expressing my frustration with dreams and wondering thoughts. I believe they are very common and human problems to have. I find them frustrating but not overly alarming or crisis inducing.

This is not a moral crisis, you say. I might agree that it is not at a crisis stage, but I think morality is definitely involved. Let me explain. Can you please tell me and the other readers what specifically you dream about when you dream about her? Are these dreams that have frustrated you for years, about righteous, wholesome, fun activities with her? Or are they X-rated, dealing with things that you would be ashamed of, if others knew? If they are, as I suspect, the latter, then I believe you have a moral issue here, and, as I said before, those dreams oftentimes are simply revealing what is in your heart, whether you consciously realize it or not. If this is the case, then ask God to forgive you for what is in your heart.

And if being with her often is what "sets off" these dreams, then a season of separation will help to shut down these dreams. I never said that the first time you had a dream, you should immediately get up and move. In fact, I did not even mention moving. I did suggest that you get out of that situation. How? I don't know, God knows but pray and ask him. You have said that there is nothing you can do about your situation. But it seems you have made many decisions that have put you in close proximity with her - performing her wedding, ministering with her, going to camp, knowing she will be there, etc. etc. I am not saying she is evil or immoral but I am saying that you have to take steps to stop those dreams for your peace of mind.

P.S. I have heard of husbands who want to maintain "friendships" with previous girlfriends after they get married, and vice-versa. It only brings temptation and division in their marriage.
I think "ONLY" is an unnecessary hyperbole here. Again, you seem to be making absolute rules based on your personal experiences/observations. Truth be told, I am still friends with all the girls I dated prior to my marriage. But my wife is probably better friends with most of them now. Our marriage is strong enough to navigate such things.

Really? Then why have you been frustrated for years with wandering thoughts and dreams? I understand we all have those occasionally, but we are not all plagued with dreams about a specific girl for years. Also, for you to say that you are friends with all the girls that you dated prior to marriage puts you, IMO, in a rare group of men. I dare say that most wives would be quite upset if their husbands were still friends with their previous girl friends. Ask any guy on this forum how his wife would react if he chose to continue befriending his previous dating partners. To be honest, I don't think that is a sign of your marriage being strong, because there is such a thing as godly jealousy.

Dwight

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