Do we obey God in order to have relationship with Him?
Or...
Do we engage in relationship with God in order to obey Him?
Your thoughts, please.
Chicken or the egg
Chicken or the egg
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I'm reading a book called "Buried Treasure: Secrets for Living From the Lord's Language", by Rabbi Daniel Lapin, and he has this to say about the Hebrew word for "sacrifice" (Korban):
I think there's a hand-in-glove relationship. We obey God in order to be in relationship, while being in a relationship with him makes us able to obey him.
So, my answer is "Yes." Which is about as much of a stand as "Give me liberty or give me...something else."
He goes on to say that in sacrificing, we draw close into relationship with God.The Hebrew word for sacrifice is KoRBaN, and it is used extensively throughout the biblical book of Leviticus in the context of the temple's sacrificial rites. The root of the word is KRB, meaning "close or related."
I think there's a hand-in-glove relationship. We obey God in order to be in relationship, while being in a relationship with him makes us able to obey him.
So, my answer is "Yes." Which is about as much of a stand as "Give me liberty or give me...something else."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Re: Chicken or the egg
That's an intersting question, as I am discussing a similar point on another forum. I am looking at it from a couple perspectives that may coming around to the same issue: Do we follow Jesus and thus become "born again"? Or do we become born again and then become disciples?schoel wrote:Do we obey God in order to have relationship with Him?
Or...
Do we engage in relationship with God in order to obey Him?
Your thoughts, please.
I think for some the good news strikes them in such a way that they desire to obey God and in so doing will establish a relationship with Him. I ee this as the more common pattern in the New Testament.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
there must be something deeper lurking within Dave's initial post that i am not quite catching.
i don't like the premises as stated; i.e. i don't obey God "in order" to have a relationship with him; nor do I have a relationship with him "in order" to obey Him.
I obey Him because i must. He is God. i develop my relationship with God so as to know Him more. As the relationship deepens I am more pleased to obey Him. developing the relationship requires my obedience, but the obedience is not the "means"-- at least i dont think that it is.
but i might be missing something!
TK
i don't like the premises as stated; i.e. i don't obey God "in order" to have a relationship with him; nor do I have a relationship with him "in order" to obey Him.
I obey Him because i must. He is God. i develop my relationship with God so as to know Him more. As the relationship deepens I am more pleased to obey Him. developing the relationship requires my obedience, but the obedience is not the "means"-- at least i dont think that it is.
but i might be missing something!
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
When Jesus said, "when you stand praying forgive" That is definitely
a boundry that he lays down..If I want a relationship with God I must
obey what HE has shown "me" and when I sin, I repent and ask him
to strengthen me to help me to obey.....So, we come to him by faith and
as we grow we obey to have fellowship and answered prayers.
a boundry that he lays down..If I want a relationship with God I must
obey what HE has shown "me" and when I sin, I repent and ask him
to strengthen me to help me to obey.....So, we come to him by faith and
as we grow we obey to have fellowship and answered prayers.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_Mort_Coyle
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:28 am
- Location: Seattle, WA
Hi Dave,
I think it's both/and. My experience seems to coincide with what I see in scripture: that God initiates relationship and extends His kindness, mercy and grace. It's His kindness that leads me towards repentance. As I am drawn into revelation of Him and relationship with Him I desire to obey Him out of love. When I disobey, I am heartsick and tend to turn away from Him out of shame. Strangely, it's usually when I've been at my worst that I'm most aware of His loving presence. It seems like He draws close as I'm stumbling in the blindness of my sin and He reaches out to me. He empowers me to feebly reach back to him. Perhaps I can barely lift a finger (metaphorically speaking), but He patiently leads me back into relationship. He restores me and inspires in me the desire to cast aside the sin that so easily besets me. I find God to be relentless, yet patient and kind, in His pursuit of relationship with us.
I think it's both/and. My experience seems to coincide with what I see in scripture: that God initiates relationship and extends His kindness, mercy and grace. It's His kindness that leads me towards repentance. As I am drawn into revelation of Him and relationship with Him I desire to obey Him out of love. When I disobey, I am heartsick and tend to turn away from Him out of shame. Strangely, it's usually when I've been at my worst that I'm most aware of His loving presence. It seems like He draws close as I'm stumbling in the blindness of my sin and He reaches out to me. He empowers me to feebly reach back to him. Perhaps I can barely lift a finger (metaphorically speaking), but He patiently leads me back into relationship. He restores me and inspires in me the desire to cast aside the sin that so easily besets me. I find God to be relentless, yet patient and kind, in His pursuit of relationship with us.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
i only read the first post, so i'm sorry if something similar to this was already mentioned
in the first few months of me becoming a Christian, and being around a bunch of amazing Christian people, i became very performance based, and one of the elders of my fellowship gently said the following statement to me, and it has stuck with me ever since, and i almost feel myself leaning on this statement quite a bit when realizing the responsibility of the Christian
"God does not want your obedience, He wants your heart, once you have given Him your heart, the obedience will follow"
after grasping that with my baby Christian hands, obedience is no longer a hassle, or a far-fetched task, it is something i long for, as many of you can probably relate... i dont always long for it, but i understand that i should
my pastor friend of mine laid out this illustration during a sermon, concerning this topic, he spoke of when his daughter was young, and he played a game with her right before bedtime, he would ask her "how much do i love you?" she would reply "i dont know", then he would say, do i love you more when you scored that goal in the soccer game today?, she replied, "i dont know", then he would say "do i love you less when you yell at mommy?" she said "i dont know", then he brought that around to the father and child relationship that man has with God when we become His child, we miss up, but He still loves us, and because of His everlasting love, we change
Titus 3:4-5
Romans 2:4
in King Jesus, the everlasting Father,
Devin
in the first few months of me becoming a Christian, and being around a bunch of amazing Christian people, i became very performance based, and one of the elders of my fellowship gently said the following statement to me, and it has stuck with me ever since, and i almost feel myself leaning on this statement quite a bit when realizing the responsibility of the Christian
"God does not want your obedience, He wants your heart, once you have given Him your heart, the obedience will follow"
after grasping that with my baby Christian hands, obedience is no longer a hassle, or a far-fetched task, it is something i long for, as many of you can probably relate... i dont always long for it, but i understand that i should
my pastor friend of mine laid out this illustration during a sermon, concerning this topic, he spoke of when his daughter was young, and he played a game with her right before bedtime, he would ask her "how much do i love you?" she would reply "i dont know", then he would say, do i love you more when you scored that goal in the soccer game today?, she replied, "i dont know", then he would say "do i love you less when you yell at mommy?" she said "i dont know", then he brought that around to the father and child relationship that man has with God when we become His child, we miss up, but He still loves us, and because of His everlasting love, we change
Titus 3:4-5
Romans 2:4
in King Jesus, the everlasting Father,
Devin
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
in mans attempt to become wise... they became fools
I don't think I obey God in order to have relationship with Him. I obey Him because I do have relationship with Him. "Our aim is to please Him" as Paul wrote.Do we obey God in order to have relationship with Him?
Or...
Do we engage in relationship with God in order to obey Him?
I do think it is necessary to "engage in relationship" with God in order to obey Him. We cannot obey Him without relationship with Him. As Paul said in Romans 7, "I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
Without relationship with God, we can only give mental assent to Christ's commands. We don't have the power to carry them out apart from Him.
This is why Christ died ---- so that we wouldhave that ability, through grace on His part, and through faith on our part.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_Christopher
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:35 pm
- Location: Gladstone, Oregon
Hi Dave,
I tend to think we obey God because He won our hearts.
Grace wins trust and loyalty.
John 1:16-18
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
NKJV
Do we obey God in order to have relationship with Him?
Or...
Do we engage in relationship with God in order to obey Him?
I tend to think we obey God because He won our hearts.
Grace wins trust and loyalty.
John 1:16-18
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
NKJV
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32