Pledges of Allegiance

[jriccitelli]

I wasn’t going to comment on this because I am stretched today, but I wanted to say: I wouldn’t be so defensive of the pledge of allegiance, because like baptism it doesn’t save us, except to ask: but what else do we have left of unity among our school kids, and our youth? – Should the IPhone and tattoos - be their symbol of Unity?

There is nothing left to unify, hold sacred or dear in secular culture, prosperity and having fun are the highest goals in life among youth. Self is what matters to kids. History, family and meaning are boring and avoided. The 20 seconds they stand and say the pledge is one of very few things that unifies them into something other than individuals in a world of survival of the fittest (most popular, and fashionably dressed). Sports, cliques and clothes are the unifiers and associations kids make in school. I can’t believe we would want to just trash something so simple and associate it with Hitler, and fear of control. It's only a pledge, but it's all that is left. Christians should see the freedom in allowing what freedom has allowed, for the time being, until it too has been taken away. Freedoms that people still come here to have, escaping sometimes only with their lives from other countries. It is good I was reminded of that when I grew up.

Singing or citing a statement together unifies people, it is not an oath without reservation or freewill. In the constitution is our right to challenge anything unconstitutional not to mention the right to bare arms. All citizens should, and do have a requirement to say the Oath of Allegiance upon immigrating. I think May 30 was chosen as Memorial Day because of the day the oath of allegiance was conceived, at Valley Forge with George Washington or somebody.

[SteveF]

2 Corinthians 8:14 NIV
Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality......

JR, I think I see why you’re listing the scriptures but I would be interested in how you see these verses materializing in your current society based on their context at the time it was written. In particular, a society comprised of both religious and non-religious people.

For example, the first scripture you quoted is talking about equality in particular churches in the material sense. Is that how you understand your pledge? I don’t think this is what you’re saying, hence the need for explanation.

I don’t mind whatever view you hold. I’m not too concerned about a particular Christian’s political view. The thing that concerns me is when someone claims a particular political view as “Christian”.

I wasn’t going to comment on this because I am stretched today, but I wanted to say: I wouldn’t be so defensive of the pledge of allegiance, because like baptism it doesn’t save us, except to ask: but what else do we have left of unity among our school kids, and our youth? – Should the IPhone and tattoos - be their symbol of Unity?

I think you may find a study of the history of Nationalism interesting. It is a fairly recent phenomenon. After the fall of unifying factors in countries like the Roman Catholic Church, kings, dynasties, feudal systems etc… it was Nationalism that took its place. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. I’m just always curious to look outside of my culture and see things in a different way than I’ve taken for granted.

As far as the need to say a pledge for unity sake, well, Canadians (I’m one) don’t use one. Other than possibly a somewhat cryptic line “…we stand on guard for thee” in our national anthem. The only other exception would be a naturalized Canadian who is required to make a pledge to become a citizen or someone taking a certain position in the government etc… In other words, hardly any naturally born Canadian ever makes a pledge.

Canada doesn’t have displays of nationalism to the extent of the United States. In fact, I’ve heard many discussions on Canadian radio and TV over my life about our lack of Nationalism compared to the U.S. and questioning what really unites us. Usually it’s brought up because the people on the talk show lament our lack of displaying national pride. The one thing that always comes up as a unifying factor is ice hockey.

I’m okay with it. I don’t feel the need to make nationalistic displays, in particular an oath (likely because I've never done it), but you seem to feel I’m missing something by not making a regular pledge. What is it I’m missing?

[thrombomodulin]

but what else do we have left of unity among our school kids, and our youth? – Should the IPhone and tattoos - be their symbol of Unity? ... Self is what matters to kids ...

Why is a sense of unity of any importance at all? In my daily work I conduct business with people who are members of foreign nations, so even if I were one who says the pledge, it could not be a unifying feature of our relationship. Yet, as far as I am aware, these relationships are working just fine. I fail to see how things would be better if I and they both pledged allegiance to either the USA or, for example, Austria.

Governments are not entities which grant freedoms but rather governments are organizations that infringe, in greater or lesser degree, on individual freedom. I'm not seeing how a pledge of allegiance to a government that engages in a great deal of wrongdoing is better than kids looking toward their own self interest. In fact, is not the latter to be preferred?

[Singalphile]

Incidentally, for anyone who might not have lived in the States for a while: Once a person's out of grade school, it's pretty rare to hear it, at least in my (childless) experience. I don't mind saying it, but I don't remember the last time I said it.

[darinhouston]

I think you may find a study of the history of Nationalism interesting. It is a fairly recent phenomenon. After the fall of unifying factors in countries like the Roman Catholic Church, kings, dynasties, feudal systems etc… it was Nationalism that took its place. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. I’m just always curious to look outside of my culture and see things in a different way than I’ve taken for granted.

Really? The Imperial Caesar cult wasn't Nationalism? Do we need a better example of something to avoid? I think it is no coincidence that God broke through all Creation at that time and place to usher in a different/better Kingdom and replace nationalism with or loyalty to Him and His kingdom. It may have taken a while after that political maelstrom to re-appear, but it seems pretty old and important to the Christian Way to recognize its dangers.

[darinhouston]

There is nothing left to unify, hold sacred or dear in secular culture, prosperity and having fun are the highest goals in life among youth. Self is what matters to kids. History, family and meaning are boring and avoided.

First, that's sad if true -- and if true, and that's all we've got, then what's the point -- we should let go of that string and find another path.

I agree with thrombo -- shouldn't we be more concerned with what unifies us as Christians than what unifies us with the rest of the world?

Also, true unity doesn't come from recitations and professions -- and it can't be faked (actually, I think it can detract from it and give us a false sense of unity to the neglect of the relational component). Some of the biggest disunity can come within groups who are on the surface incanting the same professions. A shared cultural perspective -- a shared view of the family -- a shared view of law enforcement -- a shared view of religious tolerance and/or beliefs -- a shared view of how we treat the elderly -- a shared view of self-sacrifice -- a shared view of ... you get the point -- it's only our ACTUAL shared views and cultural norms that will create/sustain unity, and many of those who would support the artifice of unity with professions of solidarity are meanwhile tearing down these shared mores and ideals which are the only source thereof.

[SteveF]

Really? The Imperial Caesar cult wasn't Nationalism?

I get what you're saying Darin and I agree. I'll elaborate on what I mean.

The term Nationalism is used by many to describe the allegiance people express to their country without someone like a Caesar. If there is no Caesar what is your basis of unity and allegiance?

For example, kings and queens in Europe used to set the state religion; make laws etc….You were basically under their Kingdom. Now the citizen’s unity and allegiance is based solely on their Nationality. Hence, the term Nationalism is used. At least, that’s how I understand it.

On a side note,

I’ve always found the concept “love of country” to be vague. Does it mean I love the people? Its laws? Its beautiful land? Why could I not love another country as much or more than mine if that’s the case?

Perhaps it’s strictly partisanship. If my neighbor was in a contest I would be inclined to root for them because of my familiarity with them. Similarly, is it nothing more than the fact our country is connected to us somehow?

Just thinking…..

[SteveF]

I’ve always found the concept “love of country” to be vague......

After sleeping on it, perhaps my vagueness is somewhat based on never having a dose of living under a horrific tyrannical regime where I was greatly mistreated.

I’ve noticed that people who escape to countries like Canada or the U.S. have an appreciation for the way it’s run that I would more easily take for granted. Having said that, I’ve seen the same people turn from love and appreciation to disillusionment and frustration if they end up having a bad experience in their new country. You often hear them say something like, “I thought it would be different here”.

No conclusions....still pondering

[jriccitelli]

Christ and Christianity changed the thinking of the Roman world, and soon the rest of the world. Speaking primarily of the western world, the principles of Christianity became predominate (in the west) and changed civilization, although God’s Kingdom is a Spiritual Unity of believers the principles have had a tremendous effect on everybody whether they know it or not. So, everyone shares some of the values and ideals of Christianity even if they hate to admit to it. Just as I agree with the good ‘morals’ of most other religions, for example I agree in having a love for all humanity as in humanism, and I agree in part with the Buddha (so I too accept some things to which I will not participate in or support). So just as I am not of 'this' world, and unbelievers are not of 'that' world, we are all given a divine law to love one another, whether we know it or not (meaning: 'unity' is a good start to love one another).

As a Christian I am given a command and a heart to love others, it is something within all of us yet it was tainted and covered by sin. So whether or not someone is a Christian or not I want to live with them and help them, as we do have a natural and human family. We are told to ‘not’ participate with sin, we have ‘not’ been told to disassociate with humans. I do not draw a line between religious, Christian, secular or agnostic in my will to love or befriend people, so I endorse the common civil bonds of unity of man has generally agreed upon like: country, school, University, marriage, family, job, occupation, and even recreation (if God's will is for us to be one and love one another, how can a non-threatening pact of peace, or unity be wrong?).

The hermit/monk/Amish/separatist attitude is an unbiblical answer to living in a fallen world (Pilgrims!?), and an unbiblical approach to what defines a Christian. We were told to go into all the world, and the great command is to love one another "there is no difference Greek or Barbarian", saved or unsaved, we all 'should' love one another, and likewise we 'should' all be in unity. We Christians take our sinful nature with us no matter where we hide (so are only Christians allowed to be in unity? Maybe I should wait until there are perfect Christians before uniting with them? We are all sinners, all Americans are sinners, you can't be a Christian without being a fallen human first, I think we are all united in that)

My Theology does not separate Christians from people who are not. A Christian’s first order of ‘welfare’ is for those of the family, the Church family then community. Other than that I do not draw a hard line between what we are as a human family, and what we are as a Church family for we naturally have to have a human family before we accept Christ as our Savior, no one is born a Christian. So I support the institutions that have necessary and positive function in civil and secular society, because without them we would have no place to bear children and protect life as we develop, and hopefully one day accept Christ and live as Christians.

Jesus works ‘among’ men, He may inspire someone to build a bridge in China, or work on a road in Honduras, we have to be careful not to separate ourselves from others just because they are not ‘Christian’. I was not a Christian at one time until someone talked to me about Christ, and some Christians helped me and befriended me from time to time. The fraternal civil unity’s that keep us together as humans are important for that to happen, and more important are the ones that promote freedom and liberty for all, a very Christian principle (does someone here think freedom and liberty are not Christian principles?)

I think I’ll skip commenting on a comparison between the US and Canada, but I will note that many of my relatives called Canada their home, and today many Mohawks live in Ontario and on the north side of the great lakes. And it is interesting that the Catholic church took my grandmother and put her into an Indian school, where she learned ‘English’, and was able to communicate with my Grandfather who had just learned English after migrating here from Italy. They met in New York, both filled with hopes of prosperity and life (note that York England was founded by the Romans, but note that Italy had joined with Hitler later on, but the French attacked the Mohawks who later joined them and converted them, who helped build the Empire State building, but the Mohawks weren’t accepted into the Unions), the moral of my story is that the weave of humanity and country is intertwined and necessary for life to unfold, Christian or not.

Our children are not born Christians, and they may be growing up as unbelievers in an unbelieving world, so I want them to have the best society and community can provide for them. That is: safety, education, peace, prosperity, freedom and hopefully gratitude to God for things established and provided for their safety and development.

Some may be misunderstanding my patriotism to be for Country without reservation, no. My pledge is ‘for the principles’ on which a countries constitution protects and endorses, my view is that the pledge and the flag stand as a reminder that our Constitution was designed to protect us 'from' the Govt. The Government, in 'our' constitution was our servant, and a subject of the ‘people’. Neither the Constitution nor the Govt. is my authority or Lord. The Government is not my King or ruler, the government is supposed to be subject to the Constitution, and to the people.
It is Liberty and Justice, and freedom for all that I salute and uphold, which the flag is a reminder, and in fact only a piece of cloth, and possibly the only memorial we have of those who have died believing and wanting Liberty and Justice, and freedom, 'despite' all the human error, mistakes and faults of the Govt.

I find it odd that unity happens in crisis, but people forget once the crisis passes. After 911, or after WW11, or after a death, everyone is religious or patriotic, and then they go back to their homes and forget. I do not forget. Adults sing God bless America at games, and it reminds us of our unity and foundation before we go back to being Giants or Red Sox fans, that’s important. Unity is necessary in many cases; don’t wait for a tragedy before we need one another, and are reminded we are United because we all live in 'one' nation. Americas primary principle 'is' Freedom (at least It used to be).

[Paidion]

Canada doesn’t have displays of nationalism to the extent of the United States.

Perhaps not. But I was wondering whether you folks who object to pledging allegiance, could conscientiously sing Canada's national anthem if you were a Canadian citizen.

O Canada, our home and native land,
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts, we see thee rise,
The true North strong and free,
And stand on guard, O Canada;
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land
Glorious and free.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.