How can people do good?

[Paidion]

Well, we can't judge motives, and therefore we cannot judge whether good acts arise from atruistic or self-serving motives.

My definition of "doing good" is "doing that which benefits others and/or oneself. Now we have to define "benefit".

[dseusy]

Ha ha, touché... I wasn't trying to split hairs- just understand your perspective on whether something good is good in and of itself, or good from a foundation of pure intent- I agree with you, that if good is defined by the act itself that good happens all around us everyday. However, I feel that the Bible communicates a standard of good that goes beyond the act as a independent and isolated event/action/item, and ties it to the person performing it and even their reason for performing the "good" act. From a "law"/God's commands perspective, I believe a "good" act can only be judged as such with full view of core intent. Even though some good may happen (hungry are fed, suffering are comforted, etc.) the whole quality of the "good" act may not be truly good- it may be tainted by an ulterior motive. For example, it isn't unconditionally loving good for someone to help someone else just to be noticed by others for the sake of pride and selfishness. It isn't good for a politician to serve the poor just because the cameras are running to further their career- they will not be rewarded for this act they have done in selfishness by God as an act that passes through the flames. Some suffering may have been prevented, but that doesn't automatically mean that good was accomplished. If God works all for the good of those who love Him, AND allows suffering, it must ultimately be good for us to suffer in this life in some ways and at certain times. So, the whole act of suffering has to be judged by God (with His whole perspective). We could probably agree that suffering is bad, but if someone voluntarily suffers for the good of another we could agree it was a good thing (so I think the quality of the suffering can be good or bad but is based not on the act alone, but on the whole picture and motives behind the act).

So, I believe you are right in stating we can't judge motives- but using the Bible we can identify a standard for good that includes motives for the purpose of application to our own lives (which is looking into the perfect law of liberty and doing it, James 1:25) rather than lessening the standard of good to an act itself (such as a long public prayer, or public generosity) which may only serve to justify ourselves/others apart from God's true justification.

[kenblogton]

What I do know is that Jesus tells us no one is good but God...

Jesus prefaced this with the words, "Why do you call me good?" So do you believe that Jesus was saying the He was NOT good?

As I've previously stated, yes, Jesus was saying that, in his own human strength and without Holy Spirit inspiration, He was not good. He was setting us the example for us to follow. You'll recall that when Jesus began His ministry, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him. Jesus NEVER failed to call upon the Holy Spirit before acting; unfortunately, we do.
kenblogton

[kenblogton]

Kenblogton wrote,

I agree with what you say. My point is that it is impossible to do so in our own strength - it takes Holy Spirit inspiration (Christ working in us).

I agree with you that it is impossible to do so in our own strength... and I believe the Bible takes it farther- based on the definition of love, that it never fails, and that only God is good, truly good- we as humans cannot love in an unfailing and unconditional way... even with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit- not that it is past God to do anything, but He already stated in His unchanging word that if we say we have no sin we lie. If we have sin, we cannot be unfailing. If we isolate it to just a one time H.S. inspired event, then we have to discount the unfailing aspect of love itself, right? Also, God IS love- I believe it states IS, rather than HAS, because love is not a separate item/entity/action. Only God is unfailing, and only God IS love. Thoughts?

Our example is Jesus Christ who was sinless unfailing unconditionally loving good. We can do unconditionally loving good with Holy Spirit inspiration, but not unfailingly, because we are imperfect.
kenblogton

[psimmond]

You can find references throughout the Bible (Old and New Testament) of humans referred to as "good" and "righteous" and of human acts that were "good" and "righteous."

So what do you do with the verses that say, "no one is good," "no one does good," and "no one is righteous"? Most of these references come from David's poetry and if you've spent time reading the Psalms, you know that David often uses hyperbole to emphasize his points.

There is the verse in Ecclesiastes that says, "There is certainly no righteous man on the earth who does good and never sins" (7:20), but here we see that there is no righteous man who never sins. This verse does not say that there is no righteous man.

Romans 3:10 appears to be a blend of Ecclesiastes 7:20 & Psalms 14:5/53:3. Paul is simply making the same point as Solomon: Even the righteous have sinned (see verse 9).

What about Jesus' statement that "no one is good but God"? Like David, Jesus often used hyperbole to make strong statements: gouge out your eye, cut off your hand, hate your mother, do not call anyone on earth your father, etc.

So in the Bible we see that the "good" are called such because they do good and the "righteous" are called such because they do what is right.

Can we equate human goodness and righteousness with divine goodness and righteousness? No, however, this doesn't negate the fact that humans can have numerous motivations for doing good/righteous deeds, including love.

[dseusy]

Psimmond wrote,

the "righteous" are called such because they do what is right.

I agree, in that always doing what is right is righteous.

"Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us." Deuteronomy 6:25

However, if a "righteous" man sins, even once, he is guilty of breaking the whole law (James 2:8-10) and is no longer a righteous man... so I believe the nature of being righteous is consistent righteousness. Otherwise, we mix righteousness and sin by calling those who sin righteous.

Can we equate human goodness and righteousness with divine goodness and righteousness?

I don't think there is a human righteousness and a divine righteousness.

Here we see our righteousness connected to divine righteousness as one righteousness: "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." 1 John 3:6b

"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." Matthew 6:33

"Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:20-21

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:21-24

I think God is righteous because He always does what is right... always.

"I will go in the strength of the Lord God; I will make mention of Your righteousness, of Yours only." Psalm 71:16

[psimmond]

dseusy said: However, if a "righteous" man sins, even once, he is guilty of breaking the whole law (James 2:8-10) and is no longer a righteous man... so I believe the nature of being righteous is consistent righteousness. Otherwise, we mix righteousness and sin by calling those who sin righteous.

Every person in the Bible who is called righteous sinned except Jesus. Do you believe Noah was sinless? How about Joseph? The Bible doesn't reserve the label "righteous" for sinless newborns. (Yes, I know some people believe that newborns are sinful.) As long as you continue to define righteousness as perfection you're going to have a hard time dealing with all of the sinful people throughout history who have been called righteous.

I don't think there is a human righteousness and a divine righteousness.

Doing right is doing right, so in that respect human righteousness and divine righteousness are the same; however, as you pointed out, God's righteousness is sure and certain. God is always righteous because he always does what is right. Humans are sometimes righteous because we sometimes do what is right.

[kenblogton]

Reply to psimmond Wednesday May 21 9pm
Doing right is doing right, so in that respect human righteousness and divine righteousness are the same; however, as you pointed out, God's righteousness is sure and certain. God is always righteous because he always does what is right. Humans are sometimes righteous because we sometimes do what is right.
The Pharisees were legalistically righteous, just as Paul was when he was a Pharisee. The only righteousness that is worthy is that which is pleasing to God, and it is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
kenblogton

[psimmond]

kenblogton said: The Pharisees were legalistically righteous, just as Paul was when he was a Pharisee. The only righteousness that is worthy is that which is pleasing to God, and it is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

With regard to righteousness, what does inspired by the Holy Spirit mean? Both Noah in the OT and Joseph in the NT were called righteous by name. And throughout the OT we are told about a class of people called "the righteous." Since the Holy Spirit did not indwell people until Pentecost, how do you explain this?

Note: I'm not suggesting that all who were referred to as righteous in the OT were justified and reconciled to God as a result of their righteousness, because of course they weren't. I'm simply saying they were righteous when they did what was right.

[Paidion]

I agree, Peter. And not only in the OT, but in the NT also! John the Baptizer's parents were "both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord." Nothing is written about them having been inspired by the Holy Spirit.

In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord. (Luke 1:5,6)