Use of Aborted Fetal Tissue

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darinhouston
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Use of Aborted Fetal Tissue

Post by darinhouston » Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:30 am

I thought a new thread on this might be worthwhile. It is a very important and broader topic than the current vaccine debate.

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Homer
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Re: Use of Aborted Fetal Tissue

Post by Homer » Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:32 am

Darin,

The stem cell lines did not come from babies aborted for the sake of medical research. They were aborted regardless.

Genesis 50:20
New American Standard Bible 1995
20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.


I would say that the case of eating food sacrificed to idols that Paul discusses in 1 Corinthians 8 would be the closest biblical analogy to this issue. We should study it carefully if our conscience is bothered.

My thought is that long ago someone sinned by having her baby aborted and the reason she did so had nothing to do with medical research. Are we to sacrifice thousands and thousands of lives because she, and the abortionist, sinned? Seems to me that would be the greater sin.

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darinhouston
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Re: Use of Aborted Fetal Tissue

Post by darinhouston » Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:51 pm

Homer wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:32 am
Darin,

The stem cell lines did not come from babies aborted for the sake of medical research. They were aborted regardless.

Genesis 50:20
New American Standard Bible 1995
20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.


I would say that the case of eating food sacrificed to idols that Paul discusses in 1 Corinthians 8 would be the closest biblical analogy to this issue. We should study it carefully if our conscience is bothered.

My thought is that long ago someone sinned by having her baby aborted and the reason she did so had nothing to do with medical research. Are we to sacrifice thousands and thousands of lives because she, and the abortionist, sinned? Seems to me that would be the greater sin.
I can see where that biblical concept might apply to various things in life, but not this one. This isn't the case where the harvesting/sale is disconnected from the research. There is a VERY CLEAR and REGULAR and RELIABLE supply chain that feeds medical research and at least partially funds Planned Parenthood. Project Veritas had an undercover sting video that was quite disgusting where a practitioner was casually eating her dinner salad while talking about the lucrative trade in parts and how she modified her procedures specifically to ensure high value on the parts. There is some dispute and controversy around whether this was done "for profit" or merely to recoup costs of the procedure, but since money is fungible, even covering part of the costs, permits the other funding to be profit.

If we were talking about speeding or something where deaths occur and -- well, the damage is done -- why not use body parts for research in that case? Fine. But, availability of body parts has absolutely ZERO influence in whether people speed.

This practice is a fundamental part of the abortion trade. And we can permit NOTHING to foster or justify its perpetuation for any reason. There's nothing inherently bad to my mind about the use per se. If we were talking about fetal tissue from natural miscarriages or still births where there was no indication that anyone hastened the issues to get the tissue, then perhaps it's worth further discussion. But, even then, this is very different from something like food sacrificed to idols - fetus are NOT inanimate objects - they have value as human life and this is a demonic sacrifice of life itself. It's more akin to cannibalism.

Perhaps you can change my mind, but I don't see this as a matter of conscience - I see it as a moral abomination to God and the life He created.

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Homer
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Re: Use of Aborted Fetal Tissue

Post by Homer » Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:20 pm

Hi Darin,

I have great respect for you and your position on this matter but I believe that God, in His providence, can use sinful, criminal actions to bring about great good. Think of the sin of Judas, the Romans, the Jews who brought about the suffering and crucifixion of our Lord. Yet we receive immeasurable benefit from this evil. And in a sense all mankind is guilty of His death because "we all sinned", Romans 3:23.

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Re: Use of Aborted Fetal Tissue

Post by Otherness » Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:00 pm

For some clarity and detail on what was originally posted in the other thread I'm sharing the cover letter that accompanied my wife's (again, she is an operating room nurse) request for an exemption from the vaccine mandate. So far her exemption is in force, but in the face of the current global, national, state, and cultural pressure we can't know how this will hold up.

+++

“Please refer to the attachments to this letter for a more detailed rationale for my request, based on my relationship with Jesus Christ, to be exempted from the Covid-19 vaccination mandate issued by the State of California. The (attached) official notice, requiring vaccination by September 30, 2021, states, on page 3, item 2, sub-item (1), that “declining vaccination based on Religious Beliefs” is recognized.

As stated above, the other attachments offer a comprehensive and detailed rationale for why I am making this request. Though I am not a baptized Catholic I am a baptized Christian and I fully agree with the position represented by my Catholic brothers and sisters. In that I work at a Catholic hospital it is entirely appropriate that I identify strongly with the pro-active pro-life stance within the Catholic community.

Beyond the “experimental nature” of these Covid-19 vaccines, and their unknown long term effects, my primary concern lies with the FACT that each one of them, in one or other stages of their development, involves the use of aborted fetal cells.

Yes, there are actually people out here in the world who are so very deeply troubled that our culture and society has so completely abandoned the value our (God-fearing) founders put on Life. My Christian belief system teaches me that children inevitably suffer the effects of their parent's sins, but we are doing even worse by preemptively punishing our unborn children for our own sin. Those of us already born, while wringing our hands and hearts and minds over how oppressive we've been to each other, are tragically blind to our destructive “oppression” of the most innocent among us.

In good conscience before God I cannot just ignore the plainly laid out FACT that abortion has played a role in the production of these vaccines, others may but I cannot. As respectfully as I can I request to be exempted from this mandate, choosing rather to be subjected to the required bi-weekly testing for continued employment as per the California Public Health Officer Order.”

+++

The attachments referred to in this cover letter are from the Catholic Pro-Life web site (https://cogforlife.org/guidance/) I linked in the other thread.

It is God Who is glorified as we let His light shine (in us) brighter and brighter wherever we find darkness.

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darinhouston
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Re: Use of Aborted Fetal Tissue

Post by darinhouston » Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:13 pm

Homer wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:20 pm
Hi Darin,

I have great respect for you and your position on this matter but I believe that God, in His providence, can use sinful, criminal actions to bring about great good. Think of the sin of Judas, the Romans, the Jews who brought about the suffering and crucifixion of our Lord. Yet we receive immeasurable benefit from this evil. And in a sense all mankind is guilty of His death because "we all sinned", Romans 3:23.
Of course He can, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight against the sinful, criminal, and immoral actions for the better good of those involved (and for the unborn -- and seek to remove all incentives that justify and sustain such an industry). Have you seen the stats of the lives destroyed following decisions to abort? Many go on and have no remorse, just like they had a wart removed. But, a great number have lifelong scars and regret and pain after this decision, which often is encouraged by PP workers who find them in their most vulnerable state and feed this demonic industry.

I highly recommend you watch the movie "Unplanned" if you haven't seen it. I can't show it to my kids yet because it's pretty raw, but it will affect anyone who sees it.

https://www.unplannedfilm.com

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Paidion
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Re: Use of Aborted Fetal Tissue

Post by Paidion » Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:22 pm

To those who believe it is okay to use aborted fetal tissue:
Suppose your father or brother had been murdered. Do you think it would be all right, to remove his heart and transplant it into the body of a living person whose heart has failed, and who is being kept alive by artificial equipment?

If you think believe this procedure to be morally okay, I can see why you believe it to be okay to use aborted fetal tissue to make a vaccine.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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darinhouston
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Re: Use of Aborted Fetal Tissue

Post by darinhouston » Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:31 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:22 pm
To those who believe it is okay to use aborted fetal tissue:
Suppose your father or brother had been murdered. Do you think it would be all right, to remove his heart and transplant it into the body of a living person whose heart has failed, and who is being kept alive by artificial equipment?

If you think believe this procedure to be morally okay, I can see why you believe it to be okay to use aborted fetal tissue to make a vaccine.
I assume you mean "without his prior consent" and I might also add that the analogy might work better if the murderer was a mass murderer and had general incentives to sell those parts to the families after killing them.

Speaking of which -- another movie for Homer to watch -- Gosnell (about the worst serial killer in history - an abortionist)...

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3722234/

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Homer
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Re: Use of Aborted Fetal Tissue

Post by Homer » Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:49 pm

I think we should clarify where we stand on the abortion issue. Is every abortion, no matter the circumstance, a sin?

Consider a young mother of two children. She joyfully finds she is pregnant again. But tragedy strikes, her husband is killed in a car wreck.
And then her troubles multiply. She is four months along in her pregnancy when she discovers abnormal bleeding. She sees her doctor and is informed that if she continues with her pregnancy she will die. She sees a specialist who confirms the diagnosis. There is a small chance the baby can be saved if she continues the pregnancy but death is certain for the mother. In this case is abortion a sin? And would it be a sin to use the aborted babies' tissue to save other lives?

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darinhouston
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Re: Use of Aborted Fetal Tissue

Post by darinhouston » Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:29 pm

Homer wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:49 pm
I think we should clarify where we stand on the abortion issue. Is every abortion, no matter the circumstance, a sin?

Consider a young mother of two children. She joyfully finds she is pregnant again. But tragedy strikes, her husband is killed in a car wreck.
And then her troubles multiply. She is four months along in her pregnancy when she discovers abnormal bleeding. She sees her doctor and is informed that if she continues with her pregnancy she will die. She sees a specialist who confirms the diagnosis. There is a small chance the baby can be saved if she continues the pregnancy but death is certain for the mother. In this case is abortion a sin? And would it be a sin to use the aborted babies' tissue to save other lives?
First, we can't let the worst possible case in an unrealistic situation that isn't in the context of the larger impacts drive our social policy or our general moral stance - there is ALWAYS a pastoral challenge even in the most black and white of moral dilemmas. If we were discussing social policy, I'd give you that .1% if you give me the 99.9%. No matter the social policy and morality position we take, there are always personal convictions that come into play in given situations for the mother - personally, I find it an easy choice and "will die" is seldom that certain and there is room for faith in that circumstance. As to using the tissue, you can't divorce that issue in the abstract - the REALITY in our world is that there is an industry built and sustained at least in part on the use of these tissues. That is (in our real world) the reality of the situation. If there was a last minute "save the mom" and "less than 5% chance of child survival" abortion done in good faith by a Doctor otherwise trying to deliver a baby, I can see where a greater good can come from that - just with organ donations. But, even with organ donations, saying I'm a fan here vs. in mainland China today where organ harvesting is a REAL industry and drives life and death situations, I might be against it in some circumstances. Even here, though it saves lives, I have a real suspicion it drives life and death decisions on the operating room table and with paramedics and others in the chain.

So, that's where I am on that.

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