A 'discussion guide' can be used in 2 ways
1) The 'leader' insists that each small group go through their questions one at a time and stay on the topic that he wants them to talk about.
2) The 'leader' simply wants to help provoke discussion and would be glad to hear that the discussion went off on a fruitful tangent.
The former wants to control conversation. The latter wants to spark conversation. I think the former is annoying, but I don't see why anyone would want to complain about the latter.
The Church Service
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jriccitelli
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Re: The Church Service
When speaking of small group leaders I agree, well said Matt! I am sick and tired of leader 'one'. Leader one is well intentioned, but more often than not totally out of tune with what may be at hand spiritually, dynamically, and needful at the time (I'm not talking about discussions that turn into obscure, unmeaningful, or unrelated subjects that could be put off to another time. Gods Word should be of primary importance and focus at study time and bible fellowship, and if the Bible topic changes, that’s fine, and if someone is hurting and needs we should attend to that person immediately, if appropriate).
Small groups 'are' the church (His body is made of many small groups focused on Him, not groups focused on pastors). I am really proud of a pastor that actively promotes small groups, but this seems more of a minority amongst the many church's where pastors allow too much of the church body too depend upon, and surround the pastor (and then I hear the pastor complain that too much is being demanded of them).
Still, small groups are not the common focus of churchs today, people have left their small churchs for big ones, and traded fellowship for sermons, yet you cannot have fellowship in a large group, and you cannot build relationships during a sermon, yet for most Christians the Sunday service is 95% of their church time!
People are going to Sunday 'services' thinking that this is 'Church' but it is not, the service is generally a production that gives us less fellowship than a visit to the mall.
(I am all for the worship and singing together, I am not talking about that)
Small groups 'are' the church (His body is made of many small groups focused on Him, not groups focused on pastors). I am really proud of a pastor that actively promotes small groups, but this seems more of a minority amongst the many church's where pastors allow too much of the church body too depend upon, and surround the pastor (and then I hear the pastor complain that too much is being demanded of them).
Still, small groups are not the common focus of churchs today, people have left their small churchs for big ones, and traded fellowship for sermons, yet you cannot have fellowship in a large group, and you cannot build relationships during a sermon, yet for most Christians the Sunday service is 95% of their church time!
People are going to Sunday 'services' thinking that this is 'Church' but it is not, the service is generally a production that gives us less fellowship than a visit to the mall.
(I am all for the worship and singing together, I am not talking about that)
Re: The Church Service
What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent.For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged ... (I Cor 14:26-31)
What happened to body ministry as was practised in the early church? Instead of each person ministering to the others in whatever manner he was gifted, today "the pastor" does everything, while the people are his audience sit in rows and listen to him as if he were an authority on everything that God has for them. In the early church there was no such thing as "the pastor". The apostles appointed overseers (elders, shepherds) and servers in every church, but the overseers didn't do all the ministering. The whole body participated. It is the lack of participation which makes church services dull. Oh, there may be given opportunity to "give a testimony" or to be part of the "music ministry". But how many churches are open to God's spirit to move and minister through the whole body?
The problem was just the opposite in the Corinthian church. Each person was taking upon himself too much. Each one was trying to exercise all the gifts, and Paul tried to correct them in his letter, telling them to minister just as the Lord had gifted them, and to give others a chance to do the same.
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. (I Corinthians 12:27-31)
What happened to body ministry as was practised in the early church? Instead of each person ministering to the others in whatever manner he was gifted, today "the pastor" does everything, while the people are his audience sit in rows and listen to him as if he were an authority on everything that God has for them. In the early church there was no such thing as "the pastor". The apostles appointed overseers (elders, shepherds) and servers in every church, but the overseers didn't do all the ministering. The whole body participated. It is the lack of participation which makes church services dull. Oh, there may be given opportunity to "give a testimony" or to be part of the "music ministry". But how many churches are open to God's spirit to move and minister through the whole body?
The problem was just the opposite in the Corinthian church. Each person was taking upon himself too much. Each one was trying to exercise all the gifts, and Paul tried to correct them in his letter, telling them to minister just as the Lord had gifted them, and to give others a chance to do the same.
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. (I Corinthians 12:27-31)
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: The Church Service
Keep in mind that in many cases some of you are only arguing against a straw man. While many churches have a service that is dominated by the pastor (though sometimes that may be due to the refusal of others to participate, which IS a problem), most churches I know are not like that.
A typical worship service in my observation involves a worship leader and team (which may involve a large number of people), a time of greeting (At least) or opportunity to share praises and prayer requests, people serving in different roles like ushering, greeting, sound tech, kids ministry, nursery, etc. The only time where the pastor takes any authority, so to speak, is when he gets up to preach. But even then many pastors are moving to a more interactive style of sermon.
I, for instance, in the smaller church I work with, allow comments, insights, questions during the sermon. In a larger church that is harder to navigate. That is why I view Sunday morning in a larger church not as a 'church' service necessarily, but more as an assembly of the various small groups and interested non-Christians.
I'll say it again, if you're expecting a gathering of 200 people to fill your needs for fellowship, you are barking up the wrong tree. But that doesn't mean the large gathering can't have value.
A typical worship service in my observation involves a worship leader and team (which may involve a large number of people), a time of greeting (At least) or opportunity to share praises and prayer requests, people serving in different roles like ushering, greeting, sound tech, kids ministry, nursery, etc. The only time where the pastor takes any authority, so to speak, is when he gets up to preach. But even then many pastors are moving to a more interactive style of sermon.
I, for instance, in the smaller church I work with, allow comments, insights, questions during the sermon. In a larger church that is harder to navigate. That is why I view Sunday morning in a larger church not as a 'church' service necessarily, but more as an assembly of the various small groups and interested non-Christians.
I'll say it again, if you're expecting a gathering of 200 people to fill your needs for fellowship, you are barking up the wrong tree. But that doesn't mean the large gathering can't have value.
Re: The Church Service
[quote="mattrose"]Keep in mind that in many cases some of you are only arguing against a straw man. While many churches have a service that is dominated by the pastor (though sometimes that may be due to the refusal of others to participate, which IS a problem), most churches I know are not like that.
A typical worship service in my observation involves a worship leader and team (which may involve a large number of people), a time of greeting (At least) or opportunity to share praises and prayer requests, people serving in different roles like ushering, greeting, sound tech, kids ministry, nursery, etc. The only time where the pastor takes any authority, so to speak, is when he gets up to preach. But even then many pastors are moving to a more interactive style of sermon.
I, for instance, in the smaller church I work with, allow comments, insights, questions during the sermon. In a larger church that is harder to navigate. That is why I view Sunday morning in a larger church not as a 'church' service necessarily, but more as an assembly of the various small groups and interested non-Christians.
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"I'll say it again, if you're expecting a gathering of 200 people to fill your needs for fellowship, you are barking up the wrong tree. But that doesn't mean the large gathering can't have value."
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There are far less than 200 people elsewhere, maybe none- so where are you suggesting one find it?
Keep in mind that a new believer may be severed from a social group and looking for new connection. If they do not find this, they will perhaps fall away rather soon after entering the Sunday assembly if all they are to face is teaching vs. loving connection with the brotherhood. Where else are they to find spiritual connection? This is where other believers are!
A typical worship service in my observation involves a worship leader and team (which may involve a large number of people), a time of greeting (At least) or opportunity to share praises and prayer requests, people serving in different roles like ushering, greeting, sound tech, kids ministry, nursery, etc. The only time where the pastor takes any authority, so to speak, is when he gets up to preach. But even then many pastors are moving to a more interactive style of sermon.
I, for instance, in the smaller church I work with, allow comments, insights, questions during the sermon. In a larger church that is harder to navigate. That is why I view Sunday morning in a larger church not as a 'church' service necessarily, but more as an assembly of the various small groups and interested non-Christians.
***********************************************************
"I'll say it again, if you're expecting a gathering of 200 people to fill your needs for fellowship, you are barking up the wrong tree. But that doesn't mean the large gathering can't have value."
********************************************************************
There are far less than 200 people elsewhere, maybe none- so where are you suggesting one find it?
Keep in mind that a new believer may be severed from a social group and looking for new connection. If they do not find this, they will perhaps fall away rather soon after entering the Sunday assembly if all they are to face is teaching vs. loving connection with the brotherhood. Where else are they to find spiritual connection? This is where other believers are!
Re: The Church Service
Wouldn't you just go to one of the Sunday gatherings and talk to some people? Maybe invite them over for dinner? Ask about small groups?
I am well aware that fellowship doesn't always happen naturally. This is coming from an extreme introvert. But it seems to me that Sunday morning provides a pretty good open door toward potential Christian friendships.
I'm from Western NY. Maybe where you live things are different. Around here, there really aren't shortages on potential Christian fellowship. In fact, I'd say we have so much fellowship that it gets in the way of mission.
I am well aware that fellowship doesn't always happen naturally. This is coming from an extreme introvert. But it seems to me that Sunday morning provides a pretty good open door toward potential Christian friendships.
I'm from Western NY. Maybe where you live things are different. Around here, there really aren't shortages on potential Christian fellowship. In fact, I'd say we have so much fellowship that it gets in the way of mission.
Re: The Church Service
So what is "church" anyway and who decides, us or God? Jesus said that where two or three are gathered in His name, He is there. Would this not be "church"? If we arrive at the church building and go into a room with a small group for a bible study class with open discussion and prayer are we not in "church"? Does walking down the hall and into the sanctuary for a "worship service" mean that we have left the "non-church" room and entered into real "church"? And is our mid-week bible study group with prayer, bible study, and open discussion not "church?
Re: The Church Service
Homer wrote:So what is "church" anyway and who decides, us or God? Jesus said that where two or three are gathered in His name, He is there. Would this not be "church"? If we arrive at the church building and go into a room with a small group for a bible study class with open discussion and prayer are we not in "church"? Does walking down the hall and into the sanctuary for a "worship service" mean that we have left the "non-church" room and entered into real "church"? And is our mid-week bible study group with prayer, bible study, and open discussion not "church?
Hear, hear! Good points. Why not go wherever it takes to make the most connections vs. staying in a barren atmosphere?
Re: The Church Service
Wait, did we change the topic? Is the discussion about a definition of the word "Church" or about the title of the thread?Roberto wrote:Hear, hear! Good points...Homer wrote:So what is "church" anyway and who decides, us or God?...
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jriccitelli
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Re: The Church Service
(Note; I am expressing my feeling here about the church because I do not feel I would find more helpful input elsewhere, I certainly could not give my opinion to the general population of the church that hold 'only' to the tradition of typical church services)
(Note it is no straw man to point out that all the churches in Europe are nearly empty, and that millions are leaving churches here to never return, etc.)
(And I am not going to worry about the meaning of the word church, although it does promote a misconception of the original word assembly, the word church has since come to mean the body of Christ, so either way, I am happy using the term church).
Please follow me here; of course when Christians engage in 'any' kind of assembly Jesus is among them, and they are the ecclesia; the assembly. I am sure that what you meant Homer is that the meaning is the same either way, and I agree, but I will use your words to describe what happens; The real Church has walked away from the bible study group that includes prayer, bible study, open discussion and fellowship into another room which focuses solely on one man; the pastor. I am all for a good speaker and teacher, but the church has not left 'the sanctuary of the pastor', and we come and go, week after week, our whole lives, only to stand before the pulpit. This is the problem, if the congregation would return to the small group and make the smaller group the focus and priority then we could 'occasionally consider' that we are capable of meeting with a larger body without again becoming entrapped into the idea that; the un-intimate giant meeting, where listening to one speaker week after week is all we need. As 'pastors' and teachers 'we' should be on guard against our human inclination to assemble around leaders instead of His Spirit.
It is my job as a shepherd, or whatever, to teach followers of Christ to learn that 'they' are His body, that 'they' are the ecclesia, that 'they' are his building, that 'they' can worship Him together when only two or ten are gathered, that they can talk about Him together without a pastor (or a video) being present, that they can serve, witness, baptize, commune, break bread and wine together when only three or eight are gathered! How blasphemous this is to some people just astonishes me. It has been carried over from Catholicism, and Protestantism has had a hard time taking off the robes of the clergy and remembering that the church is two or five gathered together. (whew)
(Note it is no straw man to point out that all the churches in Europe are nearly empty, and that millions are leaving churches here to never return, etc.)
(And I am not going to worry about the meaning of the word church, although it does promote a misconception of the original word assembly, the word church has since come to mean the body of Christ, so either way, I am happy using the term church).
Please follow me here; of course when Christians engage in 'any' kind of assembly Jesus is among them, and they are the ecclesia; the assembly. I am sure that what you meant Homer is that the meaning is the same either way, and I agree, but I will use your words to describe what happens; The real Church has walked away from the bible study group that includes prayer, bible study, open discussion and fellowship into another room which focuses solely on one man; the pastor. I am all for a good speaker and teacher, but the church has not left 'the sanctuary of the pastor', and we come and go, week after week, our whole lives, only to stand before the pulpit. This is the problem, if the congregation would return to the small group and make the smaller group the focus and priority then we could 'occasionally consider' that we are capable of meeting with a larger body without again becoming entrapped into the idea that; the un-intimate giant meeting, where listening to one speaker week after week is all we need. As 'pastors' and teachers 'we' should be on guard against our human inclination to assemble around leaders instead of His Spirit.
It is my job as a shepherd, or whatever, to teach followers of Christ to learn that 'they' are His body, that 'they' are the ecclesia, that 'they' are his building, that 'they' can worship Him together when only two or ten are gathered, that they can talk about Him together without a pastor (or a video) being present, that they can serve, witness, baptize, commune, break bread and wine together when only three or eight are gathered! How blasphemous this is to some people just astonishes me. It has been carried over from Catholicism, and Protestantism has had a hard time taking off the robes of the clergy and remembering that the church is two or five gathered together. (whew)