Women in Ministry (and in the home)

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darinhouston
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Women in Ministry (and in the home)

Post by darinhouston » Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:08 pm

I went and re-listened to Steve's lecture on this but found it a bit less robust than I recall. It is very relevant to the UMC denominational split issues. Superficially, the issues are largely around human sexuality and ordination, marriage, and so forth. But, more fundamentally they are about how one views scripture, etc.

Many/most of the traditional congregations are seeking to join new denominations which do not support homosexuality as normative but do support women in ministry, etc. So, essentially they can't fellowship with and be in submission to a church which interprets Scripture in a "progressive" way to support homosexuality because of how the contextualize the relevant passages.

But to my view, they seem to me, themselves, to interpret the gender role passages in much the same way as the progressives do with the homosexuality passages. So, it bothers me that anyone who can read scriptures so selectively to support egalitarianism shouldn't be so dogmatic about homosexuality.

Most "egalitarians" have pretty weak arguments just pointing to contextualization and the unique circumstances of the time, etc. But Ben Witherington is a deep thinker and at least comes at this from a very learned/studied position. The following article summarizes his position.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandc ... -biblical/

Thoughts?

dizerner

Re: Women in Ministry (and in the home)

Post by dizerner » Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:58 pm

Mike Winger recently did an in-depth study on this topic.

Not saying I completely agree with him, but you might find it interesting.

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darinhouston
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Re: Women in Ministry (and in the home)

Post by darinhouston » Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:56 pm

I haven't seen his in-depth treatment but found this brief discussion - he seems like a really clear thinker. I look forward to more. I'm hoping he not only expresses his positive view but fully explores and responds to the egalitarian arguments.

https://biblethinker.org/how-i-currentl ... he-church/

I was thinking today about the "contextualization" progressives do. A couple of thoughts come to mind - first, context is always critical but it strikes me that we should use context (aside from basic understanding) to seek broader principles of application of a text in our world today and not as a way to "limit" their application. Limiting a passage's application today seems like a very dangerous use of contextualization and we should have a very well defined limiting principle to avoid doing that where we might be inclined to do so based on our modern preferences and worldly viewpoints.

Second, if we look at this as having application only within that patriarchal time, perhaps the mis-match is because patriarchy is God's preferred model for our society and families and church and that we need to make that change so that the context fits better - not jettison the normative principle because our society is deviant.

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jeremiah
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Re: Women in Ministry (and in the home)

Post by jeremiah » Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:06 pm

His position reads like the standard run of the mill egalitarian arguments I’m familiar with. Thankfully not of the ‘Christian’ feminist stripe though.

For six years I considered myself a convinced egalitarian, I’ve been back on the fence for some months now.

I’ve yet to find a consistent and objective criterion among egalitarian argumentation for determining which bits are and aren’t culturally transferable regarding family structure. I’ve seen, as in the article you posted, very clever and seemingly sensible explanations of the texts, without any compelling reason to not regard them as merely way out on the skinny branches.

The mutual submission one in Ephesians 5:21 is a big one. Reflexive verbs and all, it’s still interpretation, and though once convinced, I now find the egalitarian view of the ‘household code’ texts to be far to loosy goosy in its handling of the whole. There are just too many disparate bits left on the floor unaccounted for.
Last edited by jeremiah on Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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jeremiah
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Re: Women in Ministry (and in the home)

Post by jeremiah » Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:12 pm

How’s about fifteen hours of video and counting sound?

Here’s the playlist for what he’s posted so far.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ3 ... Yw3N5pKyLC
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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darinhouston
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Re: Women in Ministry (and in the home)

Post by darinhouston » Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:27 pm

jeremiah wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:12 pm
How’s about fifteen hours of video and counting sound?

Here’s the playlist for what he’s posted so far.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ3 ... Yw3N5pKyLC
Outstanding! This should be good.

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Homer
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Re: Women in Ministry (and in the home)

Post by Homer » Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:26 am

Best article I have ever read on Galatians 3:28, a much used (and abused) text:

https://jackcottrell.com/?p=2387#:~:tex ... be%20saved.

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dwight92070
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Re: Women in Ministry (and in the home)

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:14 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:08 pm
I went and re-listened to Steve's lecture on this but found it a bit less robust than I recall. It is very relevant to the UMC denominational split issues. Superficially, the issues are largely around human sexuality and ordination, marriage, and so forth. But, more fundamentally they are about how one views scripture, etc.

Many/most of the traditional congregations are seeking to join new denominations which do not support homosexuality as normative but do support women in ministry, etc. So, essentially they can't fellowship with and be in submission to a church which interprets Scripture in a "progressive" way to support homosexuality because of how the contextualize the relevant passages.

But to my view, they seem to me, themselves, to interpret the gender role passages in much the same way as the progressives do with the homosexuality passages. So, it bothers me that anyone who can read scriptures so selectively to support egalitarianism shouldn't be so dogmatic about homosexuality.

Most "egalitarians" have pretty weak arguments just pointing to contextualization and the unique circumstances of the time, etc. But Ben Witherington is a deep thinker and at least comes at this from a very learned/studied position. The following article summarizes his position.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandc ... -biblical/

Thoughts?

Dwight - That's a very thoughtful and interesting article, but I find his arguments to be just that - HIS arguments, not what Paul seems to be saying. Ben says that, when you look at the Greek, Paul is actually saying, "I do not NOW allow you (women) to speak or to be teachers in the church, but once you are properly trained in the gospel, THEN it will be okay for you to do so." I don't see that in the Greek at all. It appears to be something Ben made up, probably because he doesn't like the clear words of Paul on this matter, for whatever reason.

Dwight - Also Ben says that Adam did not properly instruct Eve about the command by God to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. His evidence for this is that Eve told the serpent that they were not even allowed to touch the tree, which was not part of the original command. Therefore, Ben concludes, that Adam did not properly instruct Eve. I think not. I think it is more likely that Eve, adding the word "touch" to the command, is an example of how easily women are deceived, as compared to men, and as Paul said is the case, in 1 Timothy 2:14. Apparently men usually pay more attention to detail, than do women, which can easily lead to deception.

Dwight - Finally Ben says that Paul "had to start where that generation was", regarding men being in charge, so he said that elders must be men, not women. But, Ben continues, once the grace of the gospel "sinks in", so to speak, then they can also appoint women elders as well. It's amazing (and scary) that Ben or any man thinks that they can rewrite or rephrase Paul's commands to mean what they want it to mean. The last time I checked, it's Paul who was an apostle, not Ben.

Dwight - I grow tired of spiritual "leaders" complaining about "weak men" in the church (thereby proclaiming themselves "strong men"), as a reason why "strong women" MUST step forward to do what Paul says is a man's job in the church. Really? All that is, is an excuse to DISOBEY Paul's commands. I can't tell you how many times I've heard women church "leaders" say, "I really believe that God called a man to do what I'm doing, but he refused, so therefore God called me to do it." In other words, God called her to disobey Paul's commands, because of some "weak man" out there. That kind of attitude and disobedience in the church does nothing but cause division and strife. Ben does not edify the church by saying such things - he divides it.

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Homer
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Re: Women in Ministry (and in the home)

Post by Homer » Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:52 pm

Dwight,

I find myself in much agreement with you. I read most of what Witherington wrote but it seemed to me to be mostly human reasoning or what's known as "eisegesis".

Be blessed, Homer

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darinhouston
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Re: Women in Ministry (and in the home)

Post by darinhouston » Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:36 pm

Homer wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:52 pm
Dwight,

I find myself in much agreement with you. I read most of what Witherington wrote but it seemed to me to be mostly human reasoning or what's known as "eisegesis".

Be blessed, Homer

Same here - he's such a scholar and if he did write his doctoral thesis on this, there must be more behind his positions. But, it would have to be pretty compelling and he doesn't seem to be summarizing anything in his article that would lead one to believe so.

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