The Baptism of Everett

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Danny
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Re: The Baptism of Everett

Post by Danny » Mon May 04, 2009 12:52 pm

Hi Allyn,

If I understand your interpretation of scripture correctly, you are saying that without water baptism we cannot be saved. How is this not "works based" salvation? Do you consider infant baptism as acceptable for salvation or only adult "believer's" baptism?

What a shame that God's saving power is so limited by our ability to perform a ritual!

As TK touched on, you are assuming that Galatians 3:27 and Romans 6:3 are referring to the act of water baptism. Yet John (the Baptist) said of Christ "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." John spoke of a greater baptism through Christ. The ritual of water baptism is a symbol of the reality of that greater baptism--our union with Christ in death and resurrection. This union comes by grace, through faith--not by performing a physical act.

The Greek word baptizo was used in the ancient world to describe much more than a religious rite. One of the common usages of the word was to describe being overwhelmed (based on the idea of a ship becoming submerged).

Here is an interesting historical note on baptism that I found on studylight.org:
The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle!
Hebrews 9 speaks of things which are copies of heavenly things. "They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order." (9:10) When is this new order? Throughout the book of Hebrews the indication is that the old covenant is passing away and will soon disappear. This was occuring as the letter was written. Once the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, that pretty much marked the end. We live in the new order.

In the parallel passages which you brought up in Matthew and Mark, Jesus instructed his immediate disciples to go out and baptize (among other things). Paul was not in this number and he states in 1 Corinthians 1:14 that he was not sent to baptize. The Jewish Christians continued to participate in some Jewish religious customs (for example, Paul apparently took a Nazirite vow in Acts 18) but were not propigating them to Gentiles. Could it be that the Jewish rite of baptism was fading away along with the old covenant, to be replaced by the new covenant, which is Christ Himself?

When we see references to baptism in the New Testament, we tend to assume they are referring to water baptism, but might this be an assumption on our part? For example, Acts 19:1-7:
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.
In this exchange, Paul seems to be contrasting John's water baptism with baptism into Jesus. The point of this text is their receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is no mention of immersion in water to facilitate this baptism.

Could it be that the "one baptism" which Paul speaks of in Ephesians 4:4-5 ("There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called--one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.") is the baptism into Christ--the entering into His death, burial and resurrection--which is not dependant on adherence to an ancient Jewish ritual of water immersion?

I can honestly say for myself that I was baptized into Christ (with all of the attendant benefits you listed) long before I was baptized in water. The water baptism was something I did later because I was told I should, but it gained me nothing that I hadn't already been given.

Are we moving on to the Lord's Supper now?
My blog: http://dannycoleman.blogspot.com

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.”
-- William Blake

SteveF

Re: The Baptism of Everett

Post by SteveF » Mon May 04, 2009 1:48 pm

Paidion wrote:
I see a true Christian baptism as a physical/spiritual act, where outwardly and physically, there is nothing more than an immersion in water, but inwardly and spiritually, there is a death to old self, and a regeneration, so that the new self emerges.

Normally, regeneration does not take place without the physical act of immersion, though God sometimes makes exceptions.
This is a surprising perspective to me because I can't think of a Christian I know who didn't experienced regeneration before they were baptisted in water. I have a vague recollection talking with one person who said they felt they were regenerated during baptistm but that's the only one I can think of.

Danny wrote:
I can honestly say for myself that I was baptized into Christ (with all of the attendant benefits you listed) long before I was baptized in water. The water baptism was something I did later because I was told I should, but it gained me nothing that I hadn't already been given.
My experience exaltly Danny.

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TK
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Re: The Baptism of Everett

Post by TK » Mon May 04, 2009 2:03 pm

danny wrote:
If I understand your interpretation of scripture correctly, you are saying that without water baptism we cannot be saved.
not to speak for allyn, but i think he is also saying that unless you are baptized in water WITH THE CORRECT UNDERSTANDING-- per his view--(i.e. that baptism is really washing away sins) then we cannot be saved. Paidion and Homer, as I understand their view, do not go quite this far. they say baptism is required, but obedience to being baptized is the important thing, not necessarily that a person have any understanding other than that the Lord commanded it.

I am afraid that if allyn is correct heaven will be a mighty empty place. infants who are baptized dont fit that bill, which rule out catholics, lutherans, and whoever else. i know of no evangelicals who believe this, so they are out. perhaps a few from this forum might get in, but i guess i wont be one of them.

TK

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Allyn
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Re: The Baptism of Everett

Post by Allyn » Mon May 04, 2009 2:26 pm

It really dismays me when we are so willing to say we love Jesus but then shy away from the part that says if we do love Him we will keep His commandments. Which baptism says will save us? Isn't it the one with water? Not for washing dirt away but sins. I know you guys all love the Lord and I don't question anything about you except that you question the importance of Baptism unto salvation.

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Danny
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Re: The Baptism of Everett

Post by Danny » Mon May 04, 2009 3:28 pm

Hi Allyn,

I believe baptism is extremely important. In fact, it is essential. Only I believe it is immersion into Christ, not a pool of water. The former is not dependant upon the latter.
My blog: http://dannycoleman.blogspot.com

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.”
-- William Blake

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Homer
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Re: The Baptism of Everett

Post by Homer » Mon May 04, 2009 4:25 pm

Danny,

You wrote:
I believe baptism is extremely important. In fact, it is essential. Only I believe it is immersion into Christ, not a pool of water. The former is not dependant upon the latter.
I know you respect Everett Ferguson, who may be the most emminent of those who have studied and written concerning the beliefs and practices of the early church fathers. He has commented that if baptism is not for the remission of sins, then the entire early church had gone wrong within 50 years of the apostles, and that error in regard to one of the most basic of Christian doctrines. How is this to be explained? If the Apostles were incompetent to disciple their immediate followers in Christianity 101, then did Jesus pick the wrong 12?

Consider:

Hebrews 6 (New King James Version)

1. Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2. of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3. And this we will do if God permits.


Danny, this was the most basic stuff! Like teaching a child the alphabet! And the entire church got it wrong immediately afyer the Apostles died? There was, however, one early group that would agree with you, whose views on this were much like yours - the Gnostics.

And you wrote:
What a shame that God's saving power is so limited by our ability to perform a ritual!
Yes, and do you believe God could not cleanse Namaan without the 7 dips in the Jordan? Or was it because of Namaan's unbelief? There were many Naamans around when Jesus was on earth:

Matthew 13:55-58 (New King James Version)
55. Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56. And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?” 57. So they were offended at Him.
But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.” 58. Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.


I really wish you would take the time to go back to my 12:27PM post, clink on the link and read about that little preposition eis. It will explain to you who the real baptizer is when we are immersed.

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Allyn
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Re: The Baptism of Everett

Post by Allyn » Mon May 04, 2009 4:30 pm

Danny wrote:Hi Allyn,

I believe baptism is extremely important. In fact, it is essential. Only I believe it is immersion into Christ, not a pool of water. The former is not dependant upon the latter.
Hi Danny,

I'm not sure I understand your statement. How can one be baptized into Christ by immersion if water is not involved? How were the 5000 on pentecost baptized? Was it something they did or not? When Philip preached the Gospel to the Ethiopian how did the Ethiopian even get a clue that water was required if he had not been shown - what would have made him say otherwise "see, here is water, what prevents me from being baptized"? What I think is that the teaching has become so dilluted that we need to be retaught so that are understanding falls in line with the 1st century christians.

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Danny
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Re: The Baptism of Everett

Post by Danny » Mon May 04, 2009 4:56 pm

Hi Homer,
And the entire church got it wrong immediately after the Apostles died?
I don't recall making such a statement. However, since you bring it up, didn't pretty much the entire church switch to infant baptism a few hundred years after the Apostles died? Wouldn't you consider that "getting it wrong"?
There was, however, one early group that would agree with you, whose views on this were much like yours - the Gnostics.
Ah, gotta love that guilt by association.
Yes, and do you believe God could not cleanse Namaan without the 7 dips in the Jordan?
Of course He could. But Namaan had to swallow his nationalist pride and obey the words of the Hebrew prophet. That was how God was dealing with Namaan. Our prophet is the living Christ. As I said earlier, if someone feels that the Holy Spirit is telling them to be baptized in water, by all means they should do it.

I'm not sure how you got from my statement that baptism into Christ is essential to the scripture in Matthew 13 about unbelief.

Hi Allyn,
How can one be baptized into Christ by immersion if water is not involved? How were the 5000 on pentecost baptized?
You don't know what it is to be baptized into Christ, the reality that lies behind what immersion in water only symbolizes? I am wondering, are you missing something very important and ongoing? Something that continues to this day as we individually become a part of the kingdom of God?
My blog: http://dannycoleman.blogspot.com

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.”
-- William Blake

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Allyn
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Re: The Baptism of Everett

Post by Allyn » Mon May 04, 2009 5:06 pm

Danny wrote:You don't know what it is to be baptized into Christ, the reality that lies behind what immersion in water only symbolizes? I am wondering, are you missing something very important and ongoing? Something that continues to this day as we individually become a part of the kingdom of God?
I don't think I am missing anything. What might it be in your observation?

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Danny
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Re: The Baptism of Everett

Post by Danny » Mon May 04, 2009 6:30 pm

I hope you caught that I was quoting your own words back to you. I don't know that you are missing anything. My question was prompted by your question: "How can one be baptized into Christ by immersion if water is not involved?" Has your life been immersed into His? Do you have a living relationship with Him? Do you hear Christ's voice? Does He guide you and teach you? Do you feel His presence? Are you secure in the knowledge that you are His and He is yours for all eternity? If so, I'd say you have been baptized into Christ, regardless of whether or not water was involved.
My blog: http://dannycoleman.blogspot.com

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.”
-- William Blake

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