The Baptism of Everett

[SteveF]

Allyn wrote:

Personally, I am satisfied that it is water Baptism as a necessary act that is the issue because of the sins that need to be washed away. Just as necessary as asking for forgiveness of sins we commit thereafter.

Hi Allyn, please forgive my ignorance regarding this position. I think you're saying the washing of the water during baptism washes your sins away. The question that's nagging me is, how are your sins after baptism washed away? Sorry in advance if I misunderstood you.

[SteveF]

Allyn wrote:

Danny, if you mean does God speak to us with added revelation apart from what has already been compiled in the one Book we call the Bible then I would say, NO.

Hi Allyn, once again, I want to clarify what you're saying. Are you saying that God won't reveal any new doctrine or are you saying God won't reveal anything? For example, let's say i wasn't a Christian and I felt God revealed to me to talk to a certain person and that person ended up being a Christain who led me to Christ? Would something like that be possible in your mind?

Thanks
Steve

[Allyn]

Allyn wrote:

Danny, if you mean does God speak to us with added revelation apart from what has already been compiled in the one Book we call the Bible then I would say, NO.

Hi Allyn, once again, I want to clarify what you're saying. Are you saying that God won't reveal any new doctrine or are you saying God won't reveal anything? For example, let's say i wasn't a Christian and I felt God revealed to me to talk to a certain person and that person ended up being a Christain who led me to Christ? Would something like that be possible in your mind?

Thanks
Steve

Hi SteveF,
I believe that all we need to know has already been written. Of course we can and do receive a clearer understanding but the word of God is complete and perfect. I will even go as far as to say thet the perfect has already come so then those things Paul said would pass away have.

I believe your example is valid and I have personally experienced it from the position of someone being brought to me to lead to Christ. I have had the privilege of baptizing at least 5 people who I have persuaded by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Danny]

Hi Allyn,

...if you mean does God speak to us with added revelation apart from what has already been compiled in the one Book we call the Bible then I would say, NO.

What is your definition of "added revelation"? (I just noticed what while I was typing this in Notepad, Steve F asked the same question, but in a better way!)


Hi Homer,

You say God has spoken to you. In what manner? A clear, audible voice? Dream? Mental impression? Another person? If any but the first of the four listed, how would you know?

That is an interesting set of questions! My experience has been all of the above and particularly what I call "nudges", but also sometimes something between a "clear, audible voice" and a "mental impression", which is hard to describe. It's more like an internal mental conversation where the other party is clearly not me. This began occuring almost immediately after I became a Christian (and long before I was baptized). This is not a continuous conversation; I generally have to become quiet and still in a prayerful, listening mode. "Speak Lord, for your servant hears.", said Samuel. Other times God will just break in unexpectedly and say something.

Regarding the early church being essentially a Jewish sect, you are in error. Jesus referred to the church as "my church". I hope what you meant to say was that the church could have become no more than a Jewish sect. Thankfully, God did not allow this to happen.

What I meant was from the standpoint of the way the early Christian church was viewed from the outside. For a Gentile to join the incipient church was to join what appeared to be a Jewish sect. That brought with it all sorts of questions, from within and without, about how much Jewish cultural and religious baggage one had to take on. Circumcision? Torah? Baptism?

I am most concerned though, with what you believe, especially since, as I understand, you teach others. I would be very afraid to teach what you indicate you believe regarding baptism.

The main thrust of my teaching is always Jesus. Who He is and how He sees us.

When I teach on doctrinal matters I am not dogmatic. I would rather attempt to present all viewpoints that are or have been held by Christians. I'm happy to state my own view and explain why it is my view, but I'm also happy to let people wrestle out their own view. I would rather equip somebody with the tools to come to their own position than to only let them know about the position that I think is best.

[Allyn]

Allyn wrote:

Personally, I am satisfied that it is water Baptism as a necessary act that is the issue because of the sins that need to be washed away. Just as necessary as asking for forgiveness of sins we commit thereafter.

Hi Allyn, please forgive my ignorance regarding this position. I think you're saying the washing of the water during baptism washes your sins away. The question that's nagging me is, how are your sins after baptism washed away? Sorry in advance if I misunderstood you.

That's a good question SteveF. I don't think one could actually see the sins floating around in the baptismal water so I must believe that it is spiritual cleansing of the inner man.

[Allyn]

Some questions to answer or at least think about.

1 Peter 3:21 the Bible says:
"And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you (not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
Which of the following two statements most accurately represents what the Bible says.

Baptism doesn't save you

Baptism saves you

Acts 22:16
"And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name"

Baptism doesn't wash away sins

Baptism washes away your sins


Acts 2:38
"And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins"

Baptism doesn't forgive sins

Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins


Mark 16:16
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

Are we saved by faith before & without baptism

Or is faith & baptism equally essential

[Danny]

Allyn, I think you're still mistaking the physical act of immersion into water for the deeper reality that it symbolizes.

[Allyn]

Allyn, I think you're still mistaking the physical act of immersion into water for the deeper reality that it symbolizes.

Danny, why do you think that? It begins somewhere and I happen to believe that the Bible tells us that it begins with first the preaching of the necessity of baptism and then a statement like this - "See, here's water. What prevents me from being baptized?"

[Danny]

Allyn, I think you're still mistaking the physical act of immersion into water for the deeper reality that it symbolizes.

Danny, why do you think that? It begins somewhere and I happen to believe that the Bible tells us that it begins with first the preaching of the necessity of baptism and then a statement like this - "See, here's water. What prevents me from being baptized?"

Well, lets look at it this way: You wrote the following to SteveF:

I don't think one could actually see the sins floating around in the baptismal water so I must believe that it is spiritual cleansing of the inner man.

If baptism is the spiritual cleansing of the inner man (I think it's more than that, but let's stick with one thing for now), then that is the deeper reality of what baptism accomplishes. Obviously, water does not wash away sin. The cleansing is something God does spiritually. God is not limited in His ability to perform this cleansing by our performance of a procedure whereby one person dunks another person into water.

The dunking into water is a symbolic enactment of what is occurring at a deeper level in the inner man.

The question then is, can the spiritual cleansing that God is doing of the inner man be accomplished without the outer man being dunked into water?

In the ancient world, symbolism was very important. Physical acts represented spiritual realities. Grown men--fer cryin' out loud!--cut off their foreskins with dull knives and no anesthetic . Why? To symbolize their committment to God.

Likewise baptism served as a public statement of a committment. The physical act followed the decision to become a Jew, or a Christian. Gradually though it came to be viewed as a magical ritual (much like the eucharist did also) whereby the doing of the thing itself accomplished the spiritual result, rather than being an outward symbol of what was happening inside. Before long baptism became watered down (excuse the pun) to a calculated transaction that you held off on doing until you were close to death so that you could get the most bang for your dunk. After Augustine the whole thing got flipped to being a magical act performed upon infants to remove the sin of Adam and inaugurate them into the Church.

Although the outward physical act of baptism went through various redefinitions until it was often completely divorced from its original meaning (much like the eucharist), the inward baptism into Christ has never changed. When we surrender ourselves to Christ, He fills us and our inner man is baptized into Him. The inward baptism is not dependant on the performance of the outward ritual. By the same token, when we surrender ourselves to Christ our hearts are circumcised, though (thankfully!) an actual knife is not involved.

[Allyn]

Well Danny, I'll tell you what. You point to me that one place in Scripture that tells us that Baptism with water is merely symbolic and thus elective. You do that for me, ok?

I noticed you didn't bother responded to those absolutes concerning Baptism.

1 Peter 3:21 the Bible says:
"And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you (not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
Which of the following two statements most accurately represents what the Bible says.

Baptism doesn't save you

Baptism saves you

Acts 22:16
"And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name"

Baptism doesn't wash away sins

Baptism washes away your sins


Acts 2:38
"And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins"

Baptism doesn't forgive sins

Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins


Mark 16:16
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

Are we saved by faith before & without baptism

Or is faith & baptism equally essential

Allyn, I think you're still mistaking the physical act of immersion into water for the deeper reality that it symbolizes.

Danny, why do you think that? It begins somewhere and I happen to believe that the Bible tells us that it begins with first the preaching of the necessity of baptism and then a statement like this - "See, here's water. What prevents me from being baptized?"

Well, lets look at it this way: You wrote the following to SteveF:

I don't think one could actually see the sins floating around in the baptismal water so I must believe that it is spiritual cleansing of the inner man.

If baptism is the spiritual cleansing of the inner man (I think it's more than that, but let's stick with one thing for now), then that is the deeper reality of what baptism accomplishes. Obviously, water does not wash away sin. The cleansing is something God does spiritually. God is not limited in His ability to perform this cleansing by our performance of a procedure whereby one person dunks another person into water.

The dunking into water is a symbolic enactment of what is occurring at a deeper level in the inner man.

The question then is, can the spiritual cleansing that God is doing of the inner man be accomplished without the outer man being dunked into water?

In the ancient world, symbolism was very important. Physical acts represented spiritual realities. Grown men--fer cryin' out loud!--cut off their foreskins with dull knives and no anesthetic . Why? To symbolize their committment to God.

Likewise baptism served as a public statement of a committment. The physical act followed the decision to become a Jew, or a Christian. Gradually though it came to be viewed as a magical ritual (much like the eucharist did also) whereby the doing of the thing itself accomplished the spiritual result, rather than being an outward symbol of what was happening inside. Before long baptism became watered down (excuse the pun) to a calculated transaction that you held off on doing until you were close to death so that you could get the most bang for your dunk. After Augustine the whole thing got flipped to being a magical act performed upon infants to remove the sin of Adam and inaugurate them into the Church.

Although the outward physical act of baptism went through various redefinitions until it was often completely divorced from its original meaning (much like the eucharist), the inward baptism into Christ has never changed. When we surrender ourselves to Christ, He fills us and our inner man is baptized into Him. The inward baptism is not dependant on the performance of the outward ritual. By the same token, when we surrender ourselves to Christ our hearts are circumcised, though (thankfully!) an actual knife is not involved.